Politics class issues and jobs

I am moving the debate here:

Strife's Post:

// one thing in your discussion re: blue collar workers is the fact that on the East and West Coasts, Unions like AFL played a large role in determining power of blue collar workers and also teachers, transit workers like the metro or trains, farmers and other groups like hotel workers. East and West coast tend to be liberal in attitude and think positively of unions, (and in general even moderates are positive in attitude towards Unions) but those more conservative are generally against them (especially the Tea Party and far Right). 68% of Americans in general are pro-Union in 2018 (at least according to Gallup). Unions collectively bargain for perks and fair wages as well as safety mandates, job security and retirement, organize strikes and so on. Atm, a bit over 10% of all blue collar are in a Union, many of them older but male (since they were part of them since the 70s or before), but some sectors it's way more prevalent and more diverse as well). One remaining issue is that those that are not in a Union are set up against those that are and this can cause a lot of inter-class issues.

From living on the East Coast, most middle class people did not look down on labor workers - but they did look down on poor people (even if, in the next town over, they would /be/ the poor people), and being labor was actually seen positively as having a good stable job and being in the middle class (even if this was not actually the case). Generally, teachers and plumbers were in roughly the same /perceived/ class. The richer folks held disdain for labor unions and wanted to break them up so that they could have a cheap labor force again (while also hating them), without having to worry about union blockade. They would hire up scabs and cheaper labor that were not Union, and therefore try to drive a wedge between the groups. So, dirty jobs were not /always/ looked down upon - though some definitely were like trash collectors or janitors, which was held over your head as a social punishment (go to school or you'll end up a janitor!). Plumbers and electricians and mechanics however were considered highly skilled. Artists of any kind were sort of not considered as anyone that can make actual money, though because who wants to pay for art? >. > By high school, one truth is we were highly segregated by 'trade people' or 'college prep,' based on a battery of bullshit tests and that is where you get into the nuances where college prep kids could absolutely be poor (I was and many were) but trade kids got to learn /useful things/ that got them a job that paid actual money after they were out of high school. Sometimes you still had friends in trades, sometimes that was the last time you saw some kids till you graduated. I was actually envious of people that got woodshop and metalshop but it would be the higher classes that would definitively look down on trades. Some in the middle class might want to distance themselves to look richer than they were, or pathway themselves to new money by copying their "betters."

Re: Redlining is still a real thing, and it sucks - it's a hidden racism that persists, partly embedded in the mortgage industry and mixed zoning laws, and gated communities also work via gentrification. I imagine this is more what's happening where new buildings are put up that cost way too much for anyone that's not rich. Then, you get everyone else moving out to the suburbs. So while aggregate data says that segregation is less than it used to be, looking at neighborhood level data shows that areas are indeed still 'Chinatowns' and etc. This doesn't 100% prevent people from buying into the gated communities ofc, but racism still is there - Seaport in Boston is probably the closest real palce to Rosaline, which was even given it's own private transportation hub. There is a lot of fireback at how it was created, and how obviously inaccessible it makes entire parts of the Port waterfront area of Boston, and they're in the process o 'redeveloping' it now.

- While-collar folks, generally don't respect 'skilled trades' - electricians, mechanics, plumbers, roofers etc. The best proof I can offer for this is this: they bitch about the 'extortionate rates' said folk charge. They don't get the physical effort it entails, the 'overhead costs' and they utterly ignore that many of these would have had training and study to the length/depth level equivalent of a university degree. Would you expect a member of the 'university-educated professions' [like doctors] to work for minimum wage? ['Tradespersons' sub-Reddits are filled with complaints regarding this.]

- Like Strife, we got quickly got the Sorting Hat shoved on our heads at school. Unlike Strife, we were put in different buildings. One group went into school classrooms to do their A-Levels [for entry to university] while the others went into the college workshops to do GNVQ's in 'practical subjects'. Thing was the latter one was/is the category for the kids who failed the A-Level track.

- What Nicole was bitching about was more about culture, not raw income. White-collars are generally sporting 'higher educational levels' [aka have been to university] which means they've been been given much more of the 'middle-class polish' regarding the arts, politics etc. 'Nicole' and 'Adley' may earn about the same - but which is more likely to 'fit in' to an apartment building filled with 'Fraiser Cranes'? [Which was part of the whole point of the show - watching how Frasier [and Niles somewhat] having to deal with their blue-collar-and-proud Dad, esp when their worlds collide - like the sons at a ball game, or the old man at an art gallery.]

- Colin's also a Brit -  w're even more class-ridden than the US in this [which is one of the reasons why Frasier was also very popular here - we got the working class vs middle class conflict the show was built around]. Though Colin would get a bit of slack as he's an 'artisan' while she's just a 'tradesperson'.

About England yeah I had a friend from England growing up, he is the son of a glass blower that worked at the glass factory which is the center of my home town for a while and he said he was amazed that in Norway the children of a banker would play with the children of a factory worker. And I used to play with a Chilean girl as well and my mother made friends with her mother, but her husband did not like that for the wife of a teacher he felt had higher social rank than a divorced nurse.

When I was a teenager I could not handle high school, not the classes they where fine but the social aspects and I was offered a apprenticeship with the computer company I had worked at one day a week and had a summer job at for some time. The school advisor made me say no to that by directly lying to me that I would never get a job with a practical education because she was desperate to keep me in school, which meant I was left with nothing.

Ah, yes, academic advisors.
In Norway, those are apparently kind of obligated to advocate for academic paths, regardless of the students' aptitudes or interests.

Because as we all know, academia is the One True Path to success. (Never mind we have a surplus of academics who MIGHT find the one in a hundred vacancies in academia, while the trades are a bit more starved for apprentices...)

Yeah and the thing is I had a workplace I felt safe in, and they where willing to train me and I could have gone through with that education, but going through high school with all the social issues and a school which had zero interest in any adaptions to fit my needs was not possible. But yes there are to much focus on academia over practical skill as not everyone are suited to go through a academic education.

There are many things that could be said, but I'm not going to steal Nicole's IC thunder...

Speaking of which, Helena has narked her off sufficiently that she is going to do something about it... [*gives wry smirk*]

This depends on who makes up the middle class (which is shrinking) - where I grew up, a decent portion of the lower to mid level class were blue collar workers, and then you got your white collars and middle managers and etc. But this is probably changing, since the middle class is basically shrinking to nothing. Also, everyone complains about prices for anything it's true but it's not mutually exclusive to bitch and also think it's good pay if you can get it. The mid to upper classers were also more likely to not send their kids to any 'icky, destitute' public school but to private or Catholic schools where I lived because they were better schools and could afford it. And then you got other divisions in school ofc too, cliques like 'the weirdoes' and 'prepies' and 'jocks' etc. This is part of that polish you're talking about and culture. But also, what makes Nicole stand out more isn't so much she's a mechanic (though people out here on the West Coast and in cities care less about this than they used to) is her tattoos and piercings, which many service jobs (no collar jobs? Is that a way to call them?) or white collar jobs don't want you to look 'punk rock' but conservative, so they put in the dress code that you have to hide or take them out, etc. I'd bet that Adley has a dress code of some sort, even if it's much more relaxed than in previous times, - some blue collar jobs it's not a good idea to have lots of jewelry on for safety, it varies more.

Anyway, I grew up in a town that was mostly populated originally by immigrants from Canada, who spoke French and translated their own English - it was a mill town and and blue collar city originally, as are some of the other cities around Boston and Providence. Then there was a lot of influx from refugees and also general immigration, as the town became more diverse but also basically poorer since the mills shut down ages ago leaving lots of brownfields (one of which they cheerfully built the new Middle School on, and then wondered why the water was contaminated. Duh.) But, due to it's history, this is probably why things were a little different. Once you get to the capital cities, the strata is somewhat different but you got the neighborhood effects and gentrification going strong. Back Bay in Boston used to be relatively cheap and affordable and now it's the 'new hip thing' - because it's all that's left to build on really, so that leads to displacement. Helena defo would see that even worse in SF, it's so bad there right now and Boston is catching up, both of them to NYC.

Yes, the European 'middle class' is much more defined as the 'salaried white-collars and professions', while the USA it seems to be 'everybody who isn't either a millionaire or grindingly poor' [politics might have something to do with this; as the States lacks both a traditionally "working class large party" and "widespread unions" which turned the term into a badge of honour].

[Service jobs - such as baristas, shop clerks etc are defined as 'pink collar' - aka jobs which are low pay/status, fairly insecure, rather heavy on 'people skills' and traditionally filled by women.]

Anyway, Nicole does have a dress code; the steel-capped boots, cargos/overalls etc. She also wears plain plastic/steel body jewellery for it. Also the reason she doesn't wear a watch/rings/bracelets [can catch etc]. And her 'tattoo rating' only ballooned when she'd properly qualified as a mechanic.

[How many 'local shout-outs' have you noticed Nick do yet, btw? *smirks*]

Yes, the European 'middle class' is much more defined as the 'salaried white-collars and professions', while the USA it seems to be 'everybody who isn't either a millionaire or grindingly poor' [politics might have something to do with this; as the States lacks both a traditionally "working class large party" and "widespread unions" which turned the term into a badge of honour].

About right at least on the north-East Coast, things are different south of the Maison Dixon line.

Anyway, Nicole does have a dress code; the steel-capped boots, cargos/overalls etc. She also wears plain plastic/steel body jewellery for it. Also the reason she doesn't wear a watch/rings/bracelets [can catch etc]. And her 'tattoo rating' only ballooned when she'd properly qualified as a mechanic.

Right, it depends basically on what you do and sometimes depends on who your expected clientele is likely to be. this dress code isn't the kind they tell service workers to wear, I mean you would think who cares if your Starbucks worker has blue hair? Nowaday, not as much, but as I was told, you 'need to look like the people who you serve' essentially, since otherwise they will be uncomfortable. Sort of what Nicole is saying about not looking like she fits in at the condo units.

[How many 'local shout-outs' have you noticed Nick do yet, btw? *smirks*]

Well, she's not said 'throw me down the stairs my shoes' yet, but she does say, 'something something else me' - But a lot of the older set sayings are fading as that whole group of elders are basically aging out and being replaced. Some stuff sticks hard though, and that place has a distinct accent from else in RI.

Well, she was partly raised by that now dying generation... and there's been no need to throw shoes, and hers are usually heavy and would hurt if thrown... *smirks*

So you didn't notice her mentions of the Mailhot murders, the now-demolished incinerator, the Museum of Work and Culture?

I did notice the Museum of Work and Culture, I might have missed the Mailhot one though. Perfectly good opportunities for parking side by each have been missed ; )

She used that one! In the Labyrinth with the woman they captured.

Ah, there we go then lol.

Well doing something about Helena is not going to please the Chief.

Yes, the European 'middle class' is much more defined as the 'salaried white-collars and professions', while the USA it seems to be 'everybody who isn't either a millionaire or grindingly poor' [politics might have something to do with this; as the States lacks both a traditionally "working class large party" and "widespread unions" which turned the term into a badge of honour].

[Service jobs - such as baristas, shop clerks etc are defined as 'pink collar' - aka jobs which are low pay/status, fairly insecure, rather heavy on 'people skills' and traditionally filled by women.]

This depend on where in Europe in Scandinavia service workers are looked down on but it is a stable profession since everyone need to have a work contract. Here also your profession do not put you in the middle class what you earn do. If you are about the median income you are middle class, and most Scandinavians are. Really the only who are not are those who have disabilities or trouble finding a job so one have to relay on government support.

Pedantic point of the day; 'most Scandinavians can't have above median income' for 'median income' is drawn at the 50% line. So literally impossible; if most were above it the median income would rise. Plus, as I've said it's not about 'income' so much but occupation, culture etc. And while I am loathe to semi-contradict someone with personal experience, I will say this; is it not possible that the working vs middle class divide does exist within Scandinavia yet it is much a milder line due to a combination of traditions of egalitarianism, the social-democratic system, 'tall poppy syndrome' and it's much harder to effectively stratify in small communities than large?

Anyway, this is the World of Darkness. Like our own, but a little more shit in every way.

Most *working* Scandinavians have above median income.
About a quarter of the population is either retired or on disabilities, and this does pull the median income down a bit, more than the few super-rich. (Side note, being on full disabilities with congenital disability (a decent add-on to the base disabilities rate), and a modest work income on the side actually puts me just above the median, too, but Norway doesn't really have the "working poor".)

As for the "tall poppy syndrome", we call that the Laws of Jante. Largely the same thing, and it promotes equality at the expense of excellence. Being a literal genius in school, and with my aunt being the school's Dolores Umbridge, I'm sure you can imagine how enjoyable THOSE formative years of mine were...

Well, that's the same as saying 'most rich people have above median income'. You're merely shuffling around statistics to make mis-comparisons.

But I'm going to assume good faith on this one; is it not perhaps you mean 'there is low income disparity' and 'we have a high base-line for income' [which means you have a very low 'absolute poor']? Or were you referring to 'mean income' instead?

No, going with the latest figures, the median income in Norway seems to clock in around 288K NOK per annum, while the mean wage is just shy of 550K.
But, that does take into account that people employed offshore - including linoleum therapists - get a hefty wage hike for working offshore shifts. And there's a substantial amount of people in such locations, relatively speaking. We have relatively few individuals with obscene incomes, though.
What we don't have, though, is a minimum wage like the US - we have industry-wide pay grades which are essentially impossible to get below a living wage on, assuming full-time employment. The social safety net is still solid and reliable (though our current administration are doing their best on that front - bloody laissez-faire capitalists...)

But if you ask Google 'median wage in Norway' you're shown 336k NOK. We also need to consider whether each figure used is 'gross', 'net' and 'final' - net takes into account taxation, while final also accounts for any 'wealth transfers' such as benefit payments etc. Therefore, your assertion of 'most 'working' Scandanavians have above-median income' would be correct for you were comparing them to a statistic which contains a decent slice of non-working people who are poorer than the median.

This is the reason why Disraeli said 'lies, damn lies and statistics'!

True enough. But the statistic pointed out was median income, which includes disabilities benefits and the like - which in Norway is taxed as though it were wages.

We also need to account for the differences between 'absolute' and 'relative' poverty. The former is literally the amount of people who are unable to afford the basics - food, shelter, clothing, heat etc. The latter is the amount of people who are unable to afford what is deemed a 'basic standard of living' in the time/place concerned - in 2019 advanced nations, this includes things which previous generations would have considered luxuries [such as a telephone, or electricity]. Even with the recent *coughs* upsets in the USA, it's better to be 'working poor' there than say 'middle class' in Ghana [in general terms].

My point is Norway have a very large middle class and a very small lower class which is part of what keeps our economics strong. Also no not really most jobs you do with your hands are fairly respected in Norway, for both a man and a woman to snag a håndtverker, literary someone who work with their hands are considered quite a catch since they earn very well, and are considered to be good, hard honorable workers. So carpenters, plumbers, anyone who are considered to be skilled labor are as highly if not higher in regard than for example teachers, bank clerks and others who have office jobs. Mechanics are considered a bit poorly though since there are allot of projects getting less smart kids through mechanics training so being a mechanic is looked at as a profession for those who are less smart.

Generally though in Norway there are no separation between whatever or not you work in an office or are a plumber or what job you have, your income is what what put you in the middle class or not, Norwegians care very little how you make a living as long as it is something one can see as honest work. You have to understand that we have been Socialists for a really long time, and generally speaking working with your hands or with your mind you still get a salary. I can not say I in any way recognize any general looking down on of those who work with their hands.

The only exceptions are workers from other parts of Europe who come here since in Norway they get better pay, they are often treated like shit, and then there are artists they are also looked down on, even successful artists are looked on as not doing real work. Plumbers, carpenters, engineers, painters the list go on though are considered to be doing good, honest work and as such this is respected.

I am not saying there are no social inequality or issues here but the lines are not drawn between mannual labor or not but more along the lines of income brackets with those who are richer often looking down on those who are poorer. Also certain professions have more status than others but it do not really run down white collar, blue collar lines, for example work that are traditionally female like nurse or teacher tend to rank lower than those that are typically male even when they do the same thing. For example the social worker that helps me and my husband are a nurse, and she experience being considered to be of less status than another lady who are working at the psychiatric day center I go to who have a profession that are similar to nurse, but they work more with mentally disabled patients and making adjusted home for those who are disabled and such, I do not know what the English work title is, however far more men have this profession than with nurses and it earn more and have higher status. A plumber and a bank clerk who earn the same would be considered the same though, in fact in most cases the plumber would be rated higher as that is considered good honest work.

Very few Norwegians can not aford basics, the ones in most rouble are those who can not work but have not yet been grated disability are are on what is called evolution money, that is not much, by far most can still afford food, roof over their head, clothes and other neccesities but there is not allot left for extras, but there are a few who fall between two chairs. For the most part the only ones who can nto affor the basics are those who come here from other parts of Europe to beg, we have allot of those, those who are on drugs where their income go to drugs, and a few who fall between the chairs. Things have been harder now that we have a right leaning goverment though. We generally do not have the situation that are in USA where pepole can not afford to eat, and also remember healthcare is allmost free.

Our issues with powerty are mostly social, you might not be able to afford fancy vecations so you can not go to Spain with your friends, you might to be able to afford to go out as often as they do and basically we are a society built around pepole having considerable amount of free money, so it gets hard for those who can not afford as much as the rest. I am nto saying there are no poor in Norway but very few are what USA would consider poor.

Me and my husband are both on disability and we would be middle class, we have a nice apartment, in a nice neighborhood, I can wear nice clothes and eat good food and we can afford hobbies and pets and I never have to worry that if I get sick I will not be able to afford care.

World of Darkness Detroit is a scary place and probably representative of the post-industrial revolution towns in America, save for the east coast aspects. Overall, places that were pretty much polluted to shit and left to rot as their industries either became outdated or moved overseas. Then there were 'revitalization' projects intended to motivate and stimulate the economy, and even later than that the 'too big to fail' for certain companies like auto industries and banks. Brownfeild-developers became keen on buying up old government and military sites, falling apart housing projects (which were often old military housing) and industry land at cheap rates, pretending to clean it up to residential standards and then building multimillion dollar condos on it. If it were not for laws to include some if any section 9 or low income housing, there wouldn't be any and usually by the end of the project there were mysteriously far fewer than in the accepted contract. If I were to make a WoD version of the industrial towns around Providence, I would probably lean in on a lot of the urban legends there and make it more dangerous (even though it has a pretty high crime rate for the state even compared to Providence), which includes danger from supernaturals - that there were werewolf myths (specifically loup-garou) when I grew up and also there were a ton of chemical industries (towns around there made carpets and textiles, and that means dyes and other solvents which they then dumped into the Blackstone river and destroyed the fish). One such chemical place as kids we explored, we called it SBGagki, I have no idea why save that's what we saw on some of the old oil drum style cans. People swore the place glowed. So you can imagine the stories. The land was exceptionally dead all around (in WoD it's like a Pentex type place). There was also a story of a ginormous snapping turtle in the middle of the lake where we'd go skate.

Ohh that sounds pretty good to make a dark setting in WoD.

You forgot the 'revitalisation projects' would frequently also destroy what was left of the 'local community' through gentrification too. Here in the UK, we've got the problem that the poor keep on being shunted further and further out with each wave; we've seen the poor first forced out of inner London to the far suburbs, then into the commuter towns just outside the M25 and now to the rotting towns on the coast.

We have the ironies that blocks of flats built by local govt in the 1960s for 'working people' and designed by left-wing architects are now private 'executive apartments' for bankers etc with gates and private guards to 'keep out the ordinaries'.