Strife is leaving the game so we need to discuss what to do moving forward.

Strife have contacted me they have to leave the game due to real life issues they have to deal with. For now I will just bring Jeffry's team back from the marble chamber so that the Labyrinth part can be finished and then we have to duscuss what we shoud do moving forwards.

Thank you for playing Strife it was a good run.

First off, I'm going to say here and now that if that if anything I've done has contributed to this [or exacerbated the RL problems], I am very sorry [genuinely]. It was completely unintentional, was not aimed at the player one iota and if it contributed to 'general stress level' I apologise. In fact, when I noticed earlier 'something happened' I had come to the conclusion that I was willing to quit myself [both char and me] if their vanishment was my fault at all [after all, the last in, first out rule].

And I'll also say that I enjoyed the times we sparred together - they're a very good RP'er. And wish them well in the future.

As to what to do next; I think we need to establish whether Strife is merely taking a [well-earned] hiatus or they *know* for sure that they're not going to resume playing that character at all.

I am personally of the mind that unless they explicitly said the latter, we should organise things like it's the former.

For now they are saying they are leaving the game, they are off course welcome back if they change their mind. For now they have told me to make their character an NPC and that they ahve to leave for good. But yes I am not going to remove Adley he will be played as an NPC where it would be a problem if he did not act and otherwise be ready if the player decide they want to come back. if they do not he will be an important NPC at the Chantry.

Ah, I see - so basically, you're planning to kind of 'phase him into the background' so you don't cause many plot-character snarls if they return? Or are you thinking of putting Adley on a bus for a bit?

As for discussing 'what we should do afterwards', well what issues can you see that need discussing?

I am thinking of resolving the current plots Adley is in and then pacing him into the background so that if Strife should decide to return then their character is there waiting for them. Also it is hard to take over a well developed character and play them well, as a GM when a player leave I tend to prefer to place player characters turned NPC into the background. I mean he would still help defend the Chantry but he would be like Richard who is also a former player character and definively a part of the game but not run as a GM controlled player character. He would be busy with work, taking care of Kyle and helping to teach him so there would be plenty to set the character to doing.

Two things really. First of all as we are then down to four, three players and the ST the question is if we should try to recruit another player or two to keep the game going.

The second question is what to do witht he storylines that Adley's character is heavily invested in. Now Colin as well is heavily invested in the going to Horizon storyline even so Kyle is mroe tied to Adley than to Colin.

I'll miss you Strife. You are an amazing RP'er and I'm glad you were a part of my first Mage game. I always enjoyed the interactions between Adley and Serge. I wish you well in the future.


I think it's fine to keep going as three people + ST. It may be difficult to introduce a new character with everything that's going on now and in the immediate future.

I can't remember every storyline Adley's in, but for the Horizon storyline. Adley could be talking with Hermetic officials in the background while Colin talks at Kyle's Trial. Colin and Serge may need to take over much of Adley's place with storyline's involving Kyle.

I think it's fine to keep going as three people + ST. It may be difficult to introduce a new character with everything that's going on now and in the immediate future.

That is very true though they are going to Horizon where they might meet someone new, either at Horizon itself or at the Umbral port before leaving, so at the start of the next story which is coming up introducing new players are possible, if it is desierable by the rest of you.

I can't remember every storyline Adley's in, but for the Horizon storyline. Adley could be talking with Hermetic officials in the background while Colin talks at Kyle's Trial. Colin and Serge may need to take over much of Adley's place with storyline's involving Kyle.

That works for me if it is okey with you guys.

Ultimately, putting Adley on a bus may be an idea; if nothing else, it provides a perfect reason to why the PCs can't interact with him, and thus cut down the stresses of Great One basically having to try to remain true to the character *and* avoiding any developments which might be unwelcome if/when Strife returns.

Storyline wise, well what is there? Of this 'episode', the only things left are the finding of the Fallen Security Chief and the attack on Seattle [to my knowledge].

With the 'Horizon episode', well the trial ultimately effects the whole Chantry, doesn't it? Even PCs who aren't directly involved with it could be called by the Chief / whatever quest-giver you see fit to do such things as gathering evidence, making contact with others and so on. Also, surely there can be other 'tasks' on Horizon which need to be taken care of? Trading for supplies for the Chantry, running errands for NPCs and so on. Lastly, this is *Horizon*. If the three of us cannot find 'things to do' with our characters at the place without an ST constantly holding our hands, we may as well give up RP'ing now [if nothing else, the fact Horizon has it's own book helps]. Plus, not even Colin would be in the trial every waking hour of each day, would he? In fact, Horizon may offer a bit more 'fluffiness' IC which you don't get [for obvious reasons] in episodes where death is a distinct possibility.

With the Adley-quests, well I am not really that sure what was slated with him part from what Serge said. But I do think their suggestion that Adley may spend much of their time on Horizon performing the secret handshake with other Hermetics, trawling the legal records in Horizon's library for historical precedents of the case and so on - even as a PC, these *are* their strengths. Depending where their 'base of operations' is, it's possible that the PC's always conveniently seem to miss Adley...

Now, on to new characters. I disagree with Serge in the respect that Horizon is in fact an excellent time/place to introduce a new PC - the place *is* like the 'Ellis Island' for the Awakened world, which means finding each other is much more likely than say, the slightly deus ex machina manner which Nick turned up in. As for why they'd join - well, I could think of a half-dozen off the top of my head, and I'm not even the ST for this game. Lastly, if my prediction of the 'task list' is right, there should be enough time to find a new player and get their character all ready by the time the PC's hit Horizon. [In fact, might be a bit too much time].

I've already been thinking about this issue, due to the fact that currently Nick's not working well in this chronicle and if a solution can't be found, she'll be retired. I do personally think it can be 'fixed', though it *does* require her seniors [both PC and NPC] to learn a different management style and quit simply trying to bludgeon her into the round hole they've got. For to paraphrase LBJ, isn't it better for both Chantry and Traditions as a whole to have Nick in the tent pissing out, rather than her outside pissing in?

Ultimately, putting Adley on a bus may be an idea; if nothing else, it provides a perfect reason to why the PCs can't interact with him, and thus cut down the stresses of Great One basically having to try to remain true to the character *and* avoiding any developments which might be unwelcome if/when Strife returns.

Adley is a long time resident at Steelhaven, he was trained there, his Cabal is there and his Mentor and his boyfriend and his mortal job is in Boston he have no reason to leave, treating the character as I do Richard or Bruce makes more sense they are there and will interact with the player characters when there is need but they become NPCs

Storyline wise, well what is there? Of this 'episode', the only things left are the finding of the Fallen Security Chief and the attack on Seattle [to my knowledge].

You are correct.

With the 'Horizon episode', well the trial ultimately effects the whole Chantry, doesn't it? Even PCs who aren't directly involved with it could be called by the Chief / whatever quest-giver you see fit to do such things as gathering evidence, making contact with others and so on. Also, surely there can be other 'tasks' on Horizon which need to be taken care of? Trading for supplies for the Chantry, running errands for NPCs and so on. Lastly, this is *Horizon*. If the three of us cannot find 'things to do' with our characters at the place without an ST constantly holding our hands, we may as well give up RP'ing now [if nothing else, the fact Horizon has it's own book helps]. Plus, not even Colin would be in the trial every waking hour of each day, would he? In fact, Horizon may offer a bit more 'fluffiness' IC which you don't get [for obvious reasons] in episodes where death is a distinct possibility.

The trial will affect the entire Chantry so I suspect the characters will have the same reasons to go, Colin to help with the trial plus he have some buessiness to take care of. Nicole have been asked to go to help with security and she wanted to do trading on Horizon, it is also possible she could come into contact with Disperates there. Yes we never have had the Horizon War but I have included the faction, they have formed with other conflicts. Serge have been asked along to meet with Master Babu and to be moral support for Kyle.

With the Adley-quests, well I am not really that sure what was slated with him part from what Serge said. But I do think their suggestion that Adley may spend much of their time on Horizon performing the secret handshake with other Hermetics, trawling the legal records in Horizon's library for historical precedents of the case and so on - even as a PC, these *are* their strengths. Depending where their 'base of operations' is, it's possible that the PC's always conveniently seem to miss Adley...

That works.

Now, on to new characters. I disagree with Serge in the respect that Horizon is in fact an excellent time/place to introduce a new PC - the place *is* like the 'Ellis Island' for the Awakened world, which means finding each other is much more likely than say, the slightly deus ex machina manner which Nick turned up in. As for why they'd join - well, I could think of a half-dozen off the top of my head, and I'm not even the ST for this game. Lastly, if my prediction of the 'task list' is right, there should be enough time to find a new player and get their character all ready by the time the PC's hit Horizon. [In fact, might be a bit too much time].

Those are fair points, and yes there is allot of reasons why someone met on Horizon might want to join the Cabal and Steelhaven hall. I believe we should probably do the vampire hunt in Seattle first since the junt for the missing Security Chief could be done after or during the Horizon storyline so that if we find a new player or two they do nto ahve to wait.

I've already been thinking about this issue, due to the fact that currently Nick's not working well in this chronicle and if a solution can't be found, she'll be retired. I do personally think it can be 'fixed', though it *does* require her seniors [both PC and NPC] to learn a different management style and quit simply trying to bludgeon her into the round hole they've got. For to paraphrase LBJ, isn't it better for both Chantry and Traditions as a whole to have Nick in the tent pissing out, rather than her outside pissing in?

I do not think the whole the Tradiitions will change their management style to not rub Nicole the wrong way. Now what I can do is have her introduced to the Disperates as that was a storyline inteded for Tane and she can begin to work with them to perhaps see changes in the Traditions but it is nto realistic that the leadership of Steelhaven or anywhere else will suddenly change their style, I mean the leadership of Steelhaven think they have treated Nicole quite fair and so have Colin her direct superior.

- I was more thinking that while Adley remains a resident and all that, but the times which we're RP'ing he's elsewhere and thus incommunicado - for example, he may have been sent to a small Chantry in New Hampshire to aid security for a few days while their 'Chief' is laid up, or spending a week in Albany, studying under a different Hermetic House [rounding out his resume?]. In this way, he's 'still around' but reduces the stress on your end of actually RP'ing him.

- With 'trading on Horizon', well I suspect quite a few NPCs would have 'put in shopping orders'. Plus, the Chantry *itself* might need to trade for things - like some new tomes for the library and so on [Horizon isn't just Ellis Island for the Traditions, but also Diagon Alley and the Ministry of Magic.] Plus, you forgot the cybernetic conference at [I presume] TimeStop Lab which Nick was invited to.

My general point was that Horizon has *so* many things in it that PCs [NPCs too] would want to go there just because, so planning in advance to fill the PC's times is perhaps not that necessary.

- Unless it actually leads somewhere, you could simply have the Fallen Chief taken down by another, or merely escape. I remember it being mentioned they left at midnight, right? - you can get quite far in a car in 4 hours...

.- I did have a 'liaison to Others' remit in the back of my head as a possible role for Nick - I try to not make characters so narrow the ST can only do one thing with them. Plus, what about character growth?

- With 'management style', it's more about realising Nicole's limitations / quirks / reasoning and 'working with them' than simply trying to bludgeon her into the standard mould [example; Colin has worked out that Nick does 'respect greater knowledge', just she doesn't see rank as an automatic signal of it]. Any Deacon has to do this all the time because every Tradition member is different [often radically] and cats have nothing on the herding ability of Awakened. They may have *felt* they have 'treated her fine' but it's clearly not worked well in this case. If they merely hold 'it's all her fault' that is a hallmark of a poor manager and they're operating a 'fit in or fuck off' policy.

- I was more thinking that while Adley remains a resident and all that, but the times which we're RP'ing he's elsewhere and thus incommunicado - for example, he may have been sent to a small Chantry in New Hampshire to aid security for a few days while their 'Chief' is laid up, or spending a week in Albany, studying under a different Hermetic House [rounding out his resume?]. In this way, he's 'still around' but reduces the stress on your end of actually RP'ing him.

That is a possibility though I doubt just having the character around will be a big problem. I am just saying I will run him as a NPC and not as a storyteller PC.

- With 'trading on Horizon', well I suspect quite a few NPCs would have 'put in shopping orders'. Plus, the Chantry *itself* might need to trade for things - like some new tomes for the library and so on [Horizon isn't just Ellis Island for the Traditions, but also Diagon Alley and the Ministry of Magic.] Plus, you forgot the cybernetic conference at [I presume] TimeStop Lab which Nick was invited to.

Oh yes the Cybernetics conferance now I remember yes that is a thing as well and Nicole will want to attend that. Yes several NPCs will have put in orderds for things to get at Horizon but it was also talk about filling available space on the shuttle thing thing that Horizon might not get allot of and selling it there or trading it.

My general point was that Horizon has *so* many things in it that PCs [NPCs too] would want to go there just because, so planning in advance to fill the PC's times is perhaps not that necessary.

This is very true.

- I did have a 'liaison to Others' remit in the back of my head as a possible role for Nick - I try to not make characters so narrow the ST can only do one thing with them. Plus, what about character growth?

The Disperates was just mentioned as a possibility for her not a must.

- With 'management style', it's more about realising Nicole's limitations / quirks / reasoning and 'working with them' than simply trying to bludgeon her into the standard mould [example; Colin has worked out that Nick does 'respect greater knowledge', just she doesn't see rank as an automatic signal of it]. Any Deacon has to do this all the time because every Tradition member is different [often radically] and cats have nothing on the herding ability of Awakened. They may have *felt* they have 'treated her fine' but it's clearly not worked well in this case. If they merely hold 'it's all her fault' that is a hallmark of a poor manager and they're operating a 'fit in or fuck off' policy.

The problem is that bending over backwards and ignore every social order or idea of politeness so one do not put demands on a rude and crude employee is not a good management strategy either, you might make the rude employee happy but chances are they will snap at customers, make dealing with other bussinesses a nightmare and generally cause more toruble than they are worth.

The thing is the leaders of Steelhaven ARE progressive I am not sure how they can really be that much more progressive. Also remember Steelhaven do not exist in a vacume, they have to deal with other Chantries and if a member of Steelhaven tell a member of another Chantry to go fuck himself if she see him as rude is not the way you create good relations and allies, allies that Steelhaven needs.

Nicole do not play well with others who do not share her views and she can be rather rude and crude at times as well. Now it is clear the Traditions are old fashioned by all means but Steelhaven really is not so I do not really see short of going against the itnerest of the Chantry or basically just sitting there taking crap the leaders of Steelhaven can be much more progressive here.

- Well, Tass fuel is expensive and so it makes economic sense for the shuttle to load up it's empty space with 'Earth things' to re-sell for a profit on Horizon, and doing similar on the way back with 'Horizon things'. After all, the Chantry doesn't have a fat budget and needs to find ways to supplement it's income [Plus, Nick is turning a bit into the Chantry's resident scrounger].

- With 'management style', you're again missing the point utterly. It's not about 'bending over backwards', it's not about 'being progressive' or anything. It is simply matching up people to their strengths.

It is not 'bending over backwards' to say 'well, Serge is rubbish at fighting so he is not on the Labyrinth attack'. It is not 'being progressive' to say 'Nicole knows nothing of medicine so she is not the Chantry's doctor'.

Having Nick 'snapping at the customers' may be bad, but perhaps you've not considered the fact that she's a mechanic and not a receptionist, so perhaps it's best to put her in the workshop with the tools and not the front desk with the people?

- Rudeness. I think you're reading waaay too much into this bit, Great One. The only direct insults I know she's done is a) calling Colin a fucking idiot, b) calling Nassa a SOB and perhaps c) a generalised 'fuck sake'. Of which a) was justified, b) was heat of the moment and c) wasn't actually aimed at anyone in particular.

She's not the most passive of people, but that's not a crime. She's had a few sharp words with others, but not to the level of personal insults. She's had arguments with more others, but only the most hidebound Mage would consider that a 'chargeable offence' as they were generally about non-Mage things.

I hold that generally speaking, while she's rough and blunt, she's generally within the 'acceptable limits' of normal society - plus, it *does* play into her 'front line dumb soldier' persona. The petty / conservative / stuffy Mages who do expect Edwardian-levels of politeness and stamp their feet if they don't get it? You keep Nick away from them as much as possible, ideally doing things which she is good at instead.

That is good person management.

- Well, Tass fuel is expensive and so it makes economic sense for the shuttle to load up it's empty space with 'Earth things' to re-sell for a profit on Horizon, and doing similar on the way back with 'Horizon things'. After all, the Chantry doesn't have a fat budget and needs to find ways to supplement it's income.

Agreed.

- With 'management style', you're again missing the point utterly. It's not about 'bending over backwards', it's not about 'being progressive' or anything. It is simply matching up people to their strengths.

It is not 'bending over backwards' to say 'well, Serge is rubbish at fighting so he is not on the Labyrinth attack'. It is not 'being progressive' to say 'Nicole knows nothing of medicine so she is not the Chantry's doctor'.

Having Nick 'snapping at the customers' may be bad, but perhaps you've not considered the fact that she's a mechanic and not a receptionist, so perhaps it's best to put her in the workshop with the tools and not the front desk with the people?

So what you are saying is that what the Chantry should do is try to keep Nicole away from older magi and guests from other Chantries rather than expect her not to be rude to them? Because sure we can probably arrange for that.

- Rudeness. I think you're reading waaay too much into this bit, Great One. The only direct insults I know she's done is a) calling Colin a fucking idiot, b) calling Nassa a SOB and perhaps c) a generalised 'fuck sake'. Of which a) was justified, b) was heat of the moment and c) wasn't actually aimed at anyone in particular.

Being clearly anoyed and snapping at Master Davenport when he teleported inn some wireless headphones so that the other magi would agree to Nicole's plan this is quite rude he did what he could to help. Smoking in Master Steelhaven's apartment without asking him or anyone else there if it is okey. Being sarcastic as soon as someone do not agree with her the list is pretty long of what I at least would consider rather rude behavior, not so rude that she could not work at the Chantry but enought hat those who do not know her will potentially react rather badly.

She's not the most passive of people, but that's not a crime. She's had a few sharp words with others, but not to the level of personal insults. She's had arguments with more others, but only the most hidebound Mage would consider that a 'chargeable offence' as they were generally about non-Mage things.

The only chargable offenses Nicole have done is when she compared Hildegard's views to the Union, that one just do not do, and the situation with Flavian before it was shown he worked with the Nephandi. However general rudeness can make Steelhaven look bad in the eyes of allied Chantries.

I hold that generally speaking, while she's rough and blunt, she's generally within the 'acceptable limits' of normal society - plus, it *does* play into her 'front line dumb soldier' persona. The petty / conservative / stuffy Mages who do expect Edwardian-levels of politeness and stamp their feet if they don't get it? You keep Nick away from them as much as possible, ideally doing things which she is good at instead.

I guess we have grown up with different ideas of what is generally acceptable degrees of rudeness but sure it is quite possible to try to keep Nicole away from older more conservative magi though it will not always be possible, especially if that also include the ones in the Chantry.

The thing is I am not saying Nicole have to change, I am saying she is like the Anarch in a Camarilla game so others will react to her behavior.

Okay, this all comes down to ultimately one thing and one thing only; 'rudeness'.

Obviously, I have a differing level of definition of 'rudeness' to you because for starters, I didn't grow up in small-town Norway. Plus, I'm RP'ing another character - one who has the 'special New England sarcasm' [to quote Strife] who is living in one of the 'rudest cities in the USA'. In OOC terms, do accept she's blunt, brash and [often] insensitive, but I do hold to the position that *most* mages would not be that thin-skinned - particularly younger ones. Plus, having Masters stamping their feet over a bit of sass just looks sad - like they're really insecure or something.

I fully stand by Nick's IC allegation that if the Worcester Chantry cuts off assistance to Steelhaven merely on the basis of a bit of rudeness from a clearly stressed person they are clearly a bunch of very thin-skinned people. Plus, the 'alliance' must be really weak for it to be cut over something that tiny.

Nick does also dial it back, a lot depending who she's talking to - for example, the only times she's been sarcastic to the Chief was merely to illustrate a point, which was clearly not an insult. Also, she *does* adapt; if there are any seniors in the Chantry who are much more 'touchy' she will keep the relationship much more 'professional', like with Hildegard [the 'Union comparison' was over one aspect, and as Nick was basically told to sit down and shut up, won't happen again. She had a similar conversation with Jon, if you recall.]

Look, I know what you're doing here, Great One but the problem is that with a character like Nick, it's looking very like seagull management. And that's not fun because that quashes initiative and risk-taking [and leaves me to merely passively follow an NPC's orders]. Cut Nick some slack; does the likes of the Chief etc want a subordinate who *can* make decisions and take initiative, or some timid, cautious type who'll bump every decision up to him?

It is not just rudeness but being able to work with others who do not share her views. I will go through the rest of the post later though for I have to go and make some coffee and get my day started I just wanted to pop in and say that I think Warp is waiting for your reply in the IC thread so we can get Colin and Nicole out of the hobby room and continue the story.

Okay, this all comes down to ultimately one thing and one thing only; 'rudeness'.

Obviously, I have a differing level of definition of 'rudeness' to you because for starters, I didn't grow up in small-town Norway. Plus, I'm RP'ing another character - one who has the 'special New England sarcasm' [to quote Strife] who is living in one of the 'rudest cities in the USA'. In OOC terms, do accept she's blunt, brash and [often] insensitive, but I do hold to the position that *most* mages would not be that thin-skinned - particularly younger ones. Plus, having Masters stamping their feet over a bit of sass just looks sad - like they're really insecure or something.

This have never been about your character being rude, that is perfectly fine it is how she is, what is the problem is that you seam to think she should be able to be so with no reaction from anyone else. It is basically the Anarch that go up to the Prince, call him an asshole and show him the finger, it is perfectly fine if the character do so if it is in character but the player of said character have to also accept the consequenses of such actions. When Nicole is rude to other magi off course some will dislike her and when she is rude to older and more powerful magi that can have greater consequenses. I have never said you play your character wrong, that we can not have a rude character. I am saying that such behavior at times have consequenses. Just that a type of behavior is in character and fitting for a character do nto mean it will never lead to negative consequenses.

It is like with my D&D character Javin he will joyfully talk about his great love of Demogorgon to everyone he meet and that will at times get him into shit, it is in character to do so but that do nto mean no one will ever react badly to the behavior.

Now off course there are degrees of reaction, that she smoke in someone's apartment without asking first will not lead to legal issues off course but it can make the ones she do it to negatively disposed to her, the same with her crude and rude behavior while some are ok with it others will find her behavior uncomfortable to be around which might make it harder to gain favors and such but sure this is nto a problem.

However most magi and especially older magi WILL take offense when their views are compared to that of the Union for example and saying things like that to a superior can very quickly elad to trouble.

Nick does also dial it back, a lot depending who she's talking to - for example, the only times she's been sarcastic to the Chief was merely to illustrate a point, which was clearly not an insult. Also, she *does* adapt; if there are any seniors in the Chantry who are much more 'touchy' she will keep the relationship much more 'professional', like with Hildegard [the 'Union comparison' was over one aspect, and as Nick was basically told to sit down and shut up, won't happen again. She had a similar conversation with Jon, if you recall.]

Jeffry do not have a problem with Nicole, he can get a bit irritated about her tendency to want to take every resource nto nailed down back to the Chantry but that stems from him not needing it, he can afford to be picking and have never really been in a situation where he have had to scavange for resources. He was anoyed about the situation with Flavian which would lead to a talking to but he have no real problem with Nicole. Darrian likes her. Narim ahve no problem with Nicole though he think her political views are extreme, many at the Chantry have no problem with Nicole.

Also the situation with Flavian if other lives and more than lvies had not been at stake affected by the good standing o the Cabal, Jeffry would have been likely to be ok with Nicole standing her ground against Flavian and then take whatever issue came from it, it is not like he have not at times ignored the law to do what he think is right punishment or no.

Look, I know what you're doing here, Great One but the problem is that with a character like Nick, it's looking very like seagull management. And that's not fun because that quashes initiative and risk-taking [and leaves me to merely passively follow an NPC's orders]. Cut Nick some slack; does the likes of the Chief etc want a subordinate who *can* make decisions and take initiative, or some timid, cautious type who'll bump every decision up to him?

I am not sure what seagul management is but I am nto seeing that the Chief have ever asked for just blind obedience. Look at how he handles Colin and his at times insane ideas, yes at times this have lead to a stern talking to but generally as long as Colin is aware of the risk and takes risks for the right reasons and the risk he takes is mostly on himself he will allow it.

The problem with the situation with Flavian was that Nicole was NOT AWARE of the risk and her action had no potential gain that going through the right channels would not achiece.

I have used this example before let us say you run a household in World War 2 now your son runs of and gets into a scrape standing up to a addhole pushing him around. There is a big difference between if the only thing your son risked was getting in a fight and taking a few licks himself, and if your household sheltered Jewish children who would be discovered if your son's fight let to the SS taking notice of the household.

I have tried to explain this before, Warp have also tried but it do not seam to reach you. Kyle, Anna and Beatrice are dependant on the good standing of the Cabal, meaning that if the Cabal loose status and are considered to be trouble makers they can end up being Gilgulled, their very souls might end up being ripped out of them under a ritual more painful than human comprihension can describe leaving them husks without any will to live. With this on the line yes the Cabal and Jeffry are anoyed that Nicole decided that yelling at an asshole was more important than these three's safety especially when going to Colin with her suspicious about Flavian or Jeffry would have actually solved the situation.

In addition there is the case that Golden Rose all know Flavian is an ass but when they are asked to help antoher Chantry, they get there and one of their Adepts are yelled at by a Diciple that might elad to that Chantry not wanting to help Steelhaven in the future and that is a problem. The situation went far beyond Nicole just taking a risk to stick it to the man she put her Chantry and several of it's members in danger and when confronted with that all she do is shrug and that piss quite a few off.

No one ahve ever asked Nicole to just nod and say yes to everything, Colin certinly do not, but she have been asked to pick her battles and think about the consequenses of her actions and yes if she think risking the Avatars of Colin's apprentice, Adley's brother and a Cabalmate is perfectly ok in order to stick it to a asshole suprior then yes the other magi at the Chantry will ahve a problem with her.

This have never been about your character being rude, that is perfectly fine it is how she is, what is the problem is that you seam to think she should be able to be so with no reaction from anyone else. It is basically the Anarch that go up to the Prince, call him an asshole and show him the finger, it is perfectly fine if the character do so if it is in character but the player of said character have to also accept the consequenses of such actions. When Nicole is rude to other magi off course some will dislike her and when she is rude to older and more powerful magi that can have greater consequenses. I have never said you play your character wrong, that we can not have a rude character. I am saying that such behavior at times have consequenses. Just that a type of behavior is in character and fitting for a character do nto mean it will never lead to negative consequenses.

It is like with my D&D character Javin he will joyfully talk about his great love of Demogorgon to everyone he meet and that will at times get him into shit, it is in character to do so but that do nto mean no one will ever react badly to the behavior.

Now off course there are degrees of reaction, that she smoke in someone's apartment without asking first will not lead to legal issues off course but it can make the ones she do it to negatively disposed to her, the same with her crude and rude behavior while some are ok with it others will find her behavior uncomfortable to be around which might make it harder to gain favors and such but sure this is nto a problem.

However most magi and especially older magi WILL take offense when their views are compared to that of the Union for example and saying things like that to a superior can very quickly elad to trouble.

- Nick is not like the Anarch 'giving the finger to the Prince'. She is not that stupid. Secondly, a VtM comparison is wrong because most vampires are 'expendable'; a better one would be of say, a radical young Garou in a sept [as every Garou has worth, is a resource and most septs always want more Garou 'on the roll'].

- The main complaint was about 'overreactions'. A whole Chantry cutting off Steelhaven over a bit of hot-headed sass? If this was real life, I'd say something along the lines of 'for fuck's sake, grow a pair!' or something. Normally, I'd discount this as a load of hot air which won't come to much or anything but I've come to appreciate what you say, you *mean*.

I am not sure what seagul management is but I am nto seeing that the Chief have ever asked for just blind obedience. Look at how he handles Colin and his at times insane ideas, yes at times this have lead to a stern talking to but generally as long as Colin is aware of the risk and takes risks for the right reasons and the risk he takes is mostly on himself he will allow it.

- Read and enjoy. If you have a situation where the boss is always chewing you out over 'problems' and you're being threatened, you'll encourage conformity and following of the rules, even when stupid. It's all about the risk/reward ratio - if you have a system where 'risk of failure' is too high [say, be fired] and the 'level of reward' is rubbish [say, a laminated 'well done' certificate] people will gravitate to remove risk. Easy way to do this; obey rules, at all times. Regardless on how rubbish the result is.

The problem with the situation with Flavian was that Nicole was NOT AWARE of the risk and her action had no potential gain that going through the right channels would not achiece.

- Flavian didn't ID himself as ranking member - how can you salute a hidden rank? Nick was also expecting the group to go along with the idea because it was a reasonable idea and quite likely what the Chief would have ordered anyway. She wasn't expecting them all to be so pernickety and anal.

In addition there is the case that Golden Rose all know Flavian is an ass but when they are asked to help antoher Chantry, they get there and one of their Adepts are yelled at by a Diciple that might elad to that Chantry not wanting to help Steelhaven in the future and that is a problem. The situation went far beyond Nicole just taking a risk to stick it to the man she put her Chantry and several of it's members in danger and when confronted with that all she do is shrug and that piss quite a few off.

- Stick it to 'the man'? No. What she was trying to do was pre-empt the Chief's orders, so he didn't have to do every single damn thing himself. Flavian pissed her off because he merely bitching about 'lack of respect' while not taking actual charge himself. Plus, Nicole didn't yell - she may have been exceeding her authority, but she wasn't actually rude in that manner.

Lastly, if they already knew what a mere Disciple was telling them Nick wouldn't have told them because it was already being done, and if they were not doing it, well then it would appear on that basis the Disciple did know more on the particular topic. Why did she do it? Because she wanted everyone to be prepared as possible to ideally, they didn't die. Even if it was legal to completely ignore Nick, if I was the Worcester team's boss I would ask said team afterwards why they ignored her because honestly, it shows a worryingly high lack of common sense.

I thought Nick's viewpoint was obvious, but clearly isn't so I'll spell it out now. She is *not* a stupid, 'smash everything' Anarch. She doesn't object to leaders on principle, she objects to leaders being incompetent, thoughtless or evil. She doesn't immediately kick at rules, just the ones which are counter-productive, inherently unfair and just plain stupid. She's not an anarchist, more of a maverick. It's why she was perfectly happy to short-circuit Kwan in Seattle; she could see that the rule was hindering common sense. If she kicks a wasps-nest, it's because it's necessary to, not simply because she can. And she does pick her battles; there's been several times now where she will retreat/knuckle down.

I have tried to explain this before, Warp have also tried but it do not seam to reach you. Kyle, Anna and Beatrice are dependant on the good standing of the Cabal, meaning that if the Cabal loose status and are considered to be trouble makers they can end up being Gilgulled, their very souls might end up being ripped out of them under a ritual more painful than human comprihension can describe leaving them husks without any will to live. With this on the line yes the Cabal and Jeffry are anoyed that Nicole decided that yelling at an asshole was more important than these three's safety especially when going to Colin with her suspicious about Flavian or Jeffry would have actually solved the situation.

In addition there is the case that Golden Rose all know Flavian is an ass but when they are asked to help antoher Chantry, they get there and one of their Adepts are yelled at by a Diciple that might elad to that Chantry not wanting to help Steelhaven in the future and that is a problem. The situation went far beyond Nicole just taking a risk to stick it to the man she put her Chantry and several of it's members in danger and when confronted with that all she do is shrug and that piss quite a few off.

No one ahve ever asked Nicole to just nod and say yes to everything, Colin certinly do not, but she have been asked to pick her battles and think about the consequenses of her actions and yes if she think risking the Avatars of Colin's apprentice, Adley's brother and a Cabalmate is perfectly ok in order to stick it to a asshole suprior then yes the other magi at the Chantry will ahve a problem with her.

No, I can hear you well enough. The issue is that you have no nuance on the issue. If the 'forces of evil' in the Boston Traditions are so entrenched, they will have made a legal attack on them almost impossible. A certain level of 'unorthodox' moves *will* be required for victory. [Plus, you don't get Nick's motivations, see last paragraph].

This makes Nick actually a good asset for Steelhaven - not a liability. She's the wild-card, the unexpected. For her 'thought patterns' are *so* different from the average 'Lawful Evil' type she's not been factored in to the plans. She's a woman who is not scared of getting dirty when needed either; every leader needs such a person on hand, even if you have to spend quite a lot of time either denying knowledge of their actions or 'smoothing down' the political fallout from them. Lastly, she's one who will do what is right, even if all the rules said it was wrong, even at considerable personal risk. That is not an attribute which is to be dismissed lightly.

Or... the Chantry can pin it's hopes doing everything legally, with their fair-weather allies who'll run off in a huff at the slightest provocation [if they will desert SH due to a bit of sass, they are *not* going to defend SH against, say a well-connected Quaesitor and their many allies] and with their adversaries dug in and with many of the advantages? To move in a manner they've already planned for? Oh, I can see it now - 'well, the Cabal has defeated the Fallen many a time, but one of their members can be a bit rude and disrespectful at times, so Gilgul for all!'

So, I ask again. Does the senior Chantry NPCs feel that Nicole is more an asset than a liability? Because all the mood music I'm getting right now is 'anything for a quiet life' which means Nick needs to leave, for good.

Nick is not like the Anarch 'giving the finger to the Prince'. She is not that stupid. Secondly, a VtM comparison is wrong because most vampires are 'expendable'; a better one would be of say, a radical young Garou in a sept [as every Garou has worth, is a resource and most septs always want more Garou 'on the roll'].

- The main complaint was about 'overreactions'. A whole Chantry cutting off Steelhaven over a bit of hot-headed sass? If this was real life, I'd say something along the lines of 'for fuck's sake, grow a pair!' or something. Normally, I'd discount this as a load of hot air which won't come to much or anything but I've come to appreciate what you say, you *mean*.

Yes mages have worth so rudeness and acting in such a way to a superior do not get you executed but it can and will still get you into legal trouble, and it for sure it going to make it allot harder to get Masters on your side when you need them.

Chantries have political issues with one another and yes a Chantry badly insulted will then likely refuse to aid the Chantry that insulted them until reperations are made regardless of whatever or not Nicole think they should just grow a pair and take it.

Read and enjoy. If you have a situation where the boss is always chewing you out over 'problems' and you're being threatened, you'll encourage conformity and following of the rules, even when stupid. It's all about the risk/reward ratio - if you have a system where 'risk of failure' is too high [say, be fired] and the 'level of reward' is rubbish [say, a laminated 'well done' certificate] people will gravitate to remove risk. Easy way to do this; obey rules, at all times. Regardless on how rubbish the result is.

And yet the other characters manage to do their own thing and not be conformist within the system of the Traditions. And in either case like it or not the Traditions are conservative, they are not perfect that is how they work. If you want your character to work to change them that would be a nice storyline but I am not going to change how second edition Traditions work so that your character can be rude to everyone sel like with no consequenses.

Flavian didn't ID himself as ranking member - how can you salute a hidden rank? Nick was also expecting the group to go along with the idea because it was a reasonable idea and quite likely what the Chief would have ordered anyway. She wasn't expecting them all to be so pernickety and anal.

Flavian did he presented himself as Adeptus that is his rank. He asked what rank Nicole was to be ordering them around and then said he was an Adept and refused to be ordered around by a Deciple.

No one is claiming Flavian was sensible no one is claiming he was not being a dick that have never been the point, the point was he was a higher ranking member of the Traditions from a visiting Chantry that had been invited to assist Steelhaven so that Nicole's actions insulted a superior and insulted a allied Chantry.

Here is the thing it is no problem that Nicole had a problem with this guy or with the Traditions and especially the Order of Hermes' focus on rank, conflict can create good roleplying the problem is when you protest OOC that your character who is created as a rebel, actually get treated as a rebel. Yes not everything in the Traditions are ideal, that is part of the game.

Stick it to 'the man'? No. What she was trying to do was pre-empt the Chief's orders, so he didn't have to do every single damn thing himself. Flavian pissed her off because he merely bitching about 'lack of respect' while not taking actual charge himself. Plus, Nicole didn't yell - she may have been exceeding her authority, but she wasn't actually rude in that manner.

Lastly, if they already knew what a mere Disciple was telling them Nick wouldn't have told them because it was already being done, and if they were not doing it, well then it would appear on that basis the Disciple did know more on the particular topic. Why did she do it? Because she wanted everyone to be prepared as possible to ideally, they didn't die. Even if it was legal to completely ignore Nick, if I was the Worcester team's boss I would ask said team afterwards why they ignored her because honestly, it shows a worryingly high lack of common sense.

I thought Nick's viewpoint was obvious, but clearly isn't so I'll spell it out now. She is *not* a stupid, 'smash everything' Anarch. She doesn't object to leaders on principle, she objects to leaders being incompetent, thoughtless or evil. She doesn't immediately kick at rules, just the ones which are counter-productive, inherently unfair and just plain stupid. She's not an anarchist, more of a maverick. It's why she was perfectly happy to short-circuit Kwan in Seattle; she could see that the rule was hindering common sense. If she kicks a wasps-nest, it's because it's necessary to, not simply because she can. And she does pick her battles; there's been several times now where she will retreat/knuckle down.

Again no one is OOC protesting that Nicole was in the right that is not the issue, no one is protesting OOC that Flavian was an ass. But the thing is that a character is in the right do not mean they will be rewarded for it. In our D&D game yesterday I held my character back from going ape shit on a colony of mind flayers, he hates slavery and he saw a glimpse of how badly they where treating their slaves, all he wanted to do was kill as many of the mind flayers as he could and free the slaves, and doing so would have been right, it would have been the right thing to do, but that do not mean he would have been rewarded for it, instead the fraglie truce with the ilithids would have been broken and he and all of his friends would have been horribly killed.

A character being right do not mean that a often unfair society that they find themselves in will reward that character.

No, I can hear you well enough. The issue is that you have no nuance on the issue. If the 'forces of evil' in the Boston Traditions are so entrenched, they will have made a legal attack on them almost impossible. A certain level of 'unorthodox' moves *will* be required for victory. [Plus, you don't get Nick's motivations, see last paragraph].

No I have a pretty neuanced view of things look at Colin's storyline, the thing however is that his unortodox actions takes place WITHIN THE BOUNDERIES of the law, ther eis nothing for Vittoria and her brother to get him on, he is walking the tightrope and then he have a problem when Nicole jsut jump that rope completely.

This makes Nick actually a good asset for Steelhaven - not a liability. She's the wild-card, the unexpected. For her 'thought patterns' are *so* different from the average 'Lawful Evil' type she's not been factored in to the plans. She's a woman who is not scared of getting dirty when needed either; every leader needs such a person on hand, even if you have to spend quite a lot of time either denying knowledge of their actions or 'smoothing down' the political fallout from them. Lastly, she's one who will do what is right, even if all the rules said it was wrong, even at considerable personal risk. That is not an attribute which is to be dismissed lightly.

She is ONLY and assert in this regard if she can grasp the political situation and the laws to the extent that she knows when she can bend or break the rules and not bring disaster down on the head of her allies and when she can not. Colin have been trying to explain this to her and is trying again in the current scene but she is just not getting it.

Or... the Chantry can pin it's hopes doing everything legally, with their fair-weather allies who'll run off in a huff at the slightest provocation [if they will desert SH due to a bit of sass, they are *not* going to defend SH against, say a well-connected Quaesitor and their many allies] and with their adversaries dug in and with many of the advantages? To move in a manner they've already planned for? Oh, I can see it now - 'well, the Cabal has defeated the Fallen many a time, but one of their members can be a bit rude and disrespectful at times, so Gilgul for all!'

There seam to be a signicat gap here in how we see the setting and it seams odd to me you ahve read Horizon Stronghold of Hope, have you also read books such as Book of Chantries, the older Tradition books or even the Revised book Guide to the Traditions.

This is a political game we are far more talking about the relationship between two nations, it is not about fair weather friends it is about allot of delicate negotiations and trying to lick one another's crack and dig measure contests but done oh so politely to secure support. But no Golden Rose is not going to defend Steelhaven against a Quesitor out to take some of their members down and doing so legally and yes then Steelhaven WANT to pin their hopes on doing thigns legally, which is actually will work unlike ignoring the law and screaming the rules are stupid which will not.

You do not seam to understand the situation. It is basically this Widderslaintes are usually always Gilgulled however Master Senex created a legal precedent when he refused to let them take Amanda and the Traditions allowed him to keep her, he had the power to put pressure on the legal system, Steelhaven do not by the way. The precedent then is that a mage, preferably a Master and a Chantry in good standing can be allowed to have a widerslainte as their ward. The good standing being the important matter here.

If Steelhaven ignore to many laws it is easy for Vittoria D'Angelo to prove to a Tribunal that this is not a Chantry or a Cabal in good standing, then the recedent fall away and that would be very bad for Anna, Kyle and Beatrice. This is legal manuvering yes, and it is definitvely abusing the law, however just screaming and shouting and it or showing it the finger is not going to help, not unless Steelhaven is powerful enough to make it more trouble than it is worth to take the three Fallen, and for now it is not, also doing so would risk everyone else at the Chantry and efficiently cut it off from all Tradition support. Cerebrus can take that, Steelhaven can not.

Do that mean there is not situations where going against the law is nto the best thing, no it do not. jeffry did so when he blasted his way into another Chantry that he knew was abusing two hedge wizard indentured servants, he freed the Von Hesses and took them to Steelhaven and then told the other Chantry, sure by all means if you want to risk it for two indentured servants come trying to take them back. Yes this was illegal and Jeffry was sentenced to Ordeal for it, he was flogged quite severely, but he got the hedgies free and that is what mattered. The situation with Vittoria now however is not one where going against the rules directly is what will lead to good results.

So, I ask again. Does the senior Chantry NPCs feel that Nicole is more an asset than a liability? Because all the mood music I'm getting right now is 'anything for a quiet life' which means Nick needs to leave, for good.

They do think she is an assert, I mean a bit of rudeness and one incident is not going to change that, though they might not send her to deal with guests. Basically Jeffry think she is a good warrior and she get the job done, he is nto pleased about the situation with Flavian but it is one incident. Narim likes her, he think her politics is extreme but he likes having another Technomancer around. Mara have not really spoken with Nick so she have no opinion. George find Nicole to be a bit irritating and rude but he also think she is a skilled warrior and would be a useful protector for the Chantry also having another Technomancer in a mostly Mystic Chantry would be good. Amadeus Nassa find Nicole irritating, he find most pepole irritating but he have nothign against her and she do seam to be good at her job. Darrian likes Nicole because she is kind to his apprentice. Hildegard do not like Nicole though, not one bit, then again she is a super conservative Chorister so it is not to be expected she would liek her. Adjan think Nicole have dangerous political views and he is weary of her but he can nto deny that she is good with a gun. Antonio likes Nicole they have been on several missions together now and he see her skill as a soldier. Helena do not like Nicole much but she respect her skills, then again Helena is just visiting.