Re: Downtime planning thread.

[Nicole Bouchard]

Someone telling Nicole [and I assume Serge] how the cabal entered this situation that we'd have a Horizon story?

[Jeremy Silverstein]

There isn't that many major things Serge needs accomplished. Most of the things I want to do can be done in the background (since their mainly expenditures of xp and raising background dots).

The scenes that I really want to do are:

- Visiting injured mentor as well as his grandmentor
- Giving a thank-you gift to Mara O'Connor for saving his mentor

[Warpmind]

Nothing urgent comes to mind - gotta remember to assign Colin some knife skills and such owing to an intense training regimen under Richard and Amadeus, though.

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

The thank you gift can probably be done off screen I assume if there is not enough room? I can run a scene with Serge's Mentor and his grandmother. I have her name in my notes somewhere I will find it.

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

I found the name of Ange and Ryan's Mentor, I will start the scene with her tomorrow. Her name is Besanti Babu.

[Jeremy Silverstein]

I found the name of Ange and Ryan's Mentor, I will start the scene with her tomorrow. Her name is Besanti Babu

Wow I was way off...

Thanks though. Also I'm fine with the thank you gift being done off screen if we run out of room.

[Adley]

Can write up in end of Moments thread as a summary of what was done:

-Carmon's letter request
-helping with Kyle
-update regarding status of the Umbrood shard
-Lux Iternis status, including what is up with Dupuis' Apprentice and the Mercere
-Dylan's child's funeral
-Horizon
-language lessons
-finish repaying his spirit friends
-Kyle's ghost friend's cat
-update on Hannah

Probably should have the new thread kick off with the draw into the Horizon plotline stuff

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

Wow I was way off... Shocked

Thanks though. Also I'm fine with the thank you gift being done off screen if we run out of room.

A bit of an unusual name I know but it is fairly common in India. Ok thank you gift being off screen then great thank you.

I am going to do a write up of what happens during the two month jump and then you guys can also write up what your characters do with the time.

One scene we should probably try to get done is the transferrer of Master Nassa's Avatar companion to Susannah but that could be done in the new thread as it probably take some time for preparations. Colin's debate with Bianca can probably be done off screen unless there is time for it in this thread. His cook of with Udella can be done later in another thread.

[Warpmind]

The debate can probably be done offscreen.
Simply put, Colin's approach will be somewhat beastly: he'll present his factual arguments, backed up with not only statistical evidence, medical testimonies and visceral imagery of what was merely "facts of life" before vaccines - polio, measles, the Spanish Flu, and so on - and he'll mercilessly call out every debate fallacy he catches Bianca committing, whether it be ad hominem or ad ignorantiam, or any other of the familiar logical fallacies. (There are a lot of them.) He's literally in it to win it, and he's taking no prisoners.

The cook-off can probably be done offscreen, as well, with references to the outcome in terms of victory and the assorted food comas of the judges. It might be fun to watch on Master Chef, but a cook-off done in plain print gets.. a little dry.

And I've pretty much determined that Colin's spending time training and working, getting a bit of spare time with research...

...Awshit, almost forgot - the ghost needs to be dealt with. That shouldn't be delayed long, either - perhaps a month's time, tops, to make the little shrine for the (repainted) toy car, to appease the poor mother. That should probably be done IC.

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

The debate can probably be done offscreen.
Simply put, Colin's approach will be somewhat beastly: he'll present his factual arguments, backed up with not only statistical evidence, medical testimonies and visceral imagery of what was merely "facts of life" before vaccines - polio, measles, the Spanish Flu, and so on - and he'll mercilessly call out every debate fallacy he catches Bianca committing, whether it be ad hominem or ad ignorantiam, or any other of the familiar logical fallacies. (There are a lot of them.) He's literally in it to win it, and he's taking no prisoners. Razz

In it to win indeed especially since Richard would have informed him that if they do not get more Chantry inhabitants to vaccinate themselves then it would be irresponsible not to vaccinate Ana and she can not use the nose spray as her immune system is to weak for it, so he is looking at having to hold Anna down for vaccines unless he win the debate.

Bianca will basically bring to the table the usual superstitions and claims of autism. In addition she will say that vaccines calcify the pineal gland this will be her main argument and that it can hinder magickal powers. If he is asked about it Richard will confirm that there are substances in vaccines that is believed to calcify the pineal gland however there are far more of those substances in toothpaste so if someone is worried making their own for a few months after the vaccines or using a toothpaste without those substances would contradict all negative effects, also he will point out that Hildegard at 71 years of age is an Adeptus Majora and she did not have a full range of vaccines and there where not really a advanced vaccination program when she was a child, while Narim who have been traveling around allot and have more than the regular American vaccination program is an Master of 4 Sphere and Adept at 3 more at age 35 so clearly it can not be that damaging.

The cook-off can probably be done offscreen, as well, with references to the outcome in terms of victory and the assorted food comas of the judges. It might be fun to watch on Master Chef, but a cook-off done in plain print gets.. a little dry.

Yeah and besides we do not need to do it now, it is more likely to happen at Horizon after the trials anyway.

And I've pretty much determined that Colin's spending time training and working, getting a bit of spare time with research...

Ok that works. He also have the plaques he have to work on.

...Awshit, almost forgot - the ghost needs to be dealt with. That shouldn't be delayed long, either - perhaps a month's time, tops, to make the little shrine for the (repainted) toy car, to appease the poor mother. That should probably be done IC.

Yes off course I can start an IC scene with that as soon as you wish.

[Nicole Bouchard]

Why can't Anna be vaccinated again? Plus, who does Colin have to persuade - a crowd, a panel or Bianca?

Plus, weren't the cabal meant to have a paintball game or something?

Lastly, we do seem to be using this thread quite a bit. Why don't we simply keep this ongoing as a general OOC discussion one?

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

Because her old Mentor a Nephandi torturer forced er to watch as he tortured to death prisoners, and his favorite tool, needles. This got the kid to develop a pretty bad phobia.

Oh the paintball game almost forgot should that be a in character scene or just mentioned in the write up?

That is not a bad idea.

[Nicole Bouchard]

What about alternatives to a vaccination, then? How about oral, skin absorption etc? This sounds like a job for medical Science!

I think just do a write-up regarding the paintball. I'm inclined to describe it as a 'garnish thread' - and while I was missing garnish-eating when we were on IC #29, I am now at the stage which I'm looking forward to eating some meaty plot again... but just my own feelings, naturally.

Oh, and didn't answer about who Colin had to persuade in the debate...

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

Those vaccines where there are non injectable alternatives which are safe for someone with a weak heart and lungs she will be given but not all of the needed ones have alternatives though a crafty Etherite might be able to figure something out there.

Bianca Rozzo is the one who have been raising anti vaccination questions in the Chantry so Colin have to win over her arguments and then hope the rest will fall in line when he do.

Ok about the paintball.

[Nicole Bouchard]

Nicole will press Colin to get this 'debate' held in public. That Bianca has a head filled with sawdust and nesting mice on this issue and persuading her will be impossible. But, this does not stop others being persuaded by the lack of actual proof of her argument.

She'll also suggest asking around the Chantry to see if he can find someone who personally knew someone who'd died from one of diseases vaccinated against and get them to come and describe what it was like to watch them die of it.

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

That is the plan and basically the point of the thing, just having a debate as a duel to shut Bianca up will not work well what they need is for others to see that she is wrong or as it is she is putting Anna who can not be vaccinated and Adley who have a reduced immune system until he heals and Bea who is just fucked up after the attempted Gilgul in danger but not getting the herd immunity up.

Darrian's little brother died from what was it tuberculosis I think, Hildegard are likely to have known someone who died from easily preventable illnesses, all the older magi probably have known someone who died, so yes that would probably be a powerful argument for Colin's case.

[Warpmind]

Essentially, Bianca will be bringing her passionate arguments on a scooter, while Colin meets them with hard science and reason on a steamroller.

But yeah, the debate will be public, before a panel of Deacons, since it will determine whether everyone who can gets vaccinated or not.

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

The problem if the Deacons declare that everyone who can be vaccinated have to are those like Cecilia who is rather nervous and very nervous Mentors scared for their apprentices well being who might protest.

[Warpmind]

Which is why the debate needs to be concluded showing the utter weakness of Bianca's arguments, not just to satisfy the Deacons, but everyone. Hence, public debate.

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

That is true, Bianca have scared the older magi with students though, and some of what she say do make sense that the sheer number of vaccines at once can be traumatizing for the kids, especially if it is done against their will, which is true, especially Darrian is very worried for Cava and his worry is scaring her since she have never gone to a doctor's office before and when the adult in her life act like if it is a big deal then that do worry her. But yes the Deacons are not likely to make it mandatory though they will strongly recommend that everyone get vaccinated.

It might be noted that Mara O'Connor intend to get vaccinated and it might be a indication that something should be done when the fay mage with oracular abilities decide to get it done, as well something bad might be coming to Steelhaven.

[Nicole Bouchard]

Will point out, that unless the WoD is much different to ours regarding vaccinations, most of the 'younger' mages [born after ~1955] reared in 1st/2nd world nations would have been jabbed anyway under normal childhood programmes. So, unless everyone's being given boosters, the main folk the docs would be going after would be;
a) folk born before c1950 [too old to get normally]
b) folk who didn't get them normally due to differing vaccination schedules due to date/location [eg Colin wouldn't have got chickenpox [NHS doesn't do it, even now... as my own scars show] Nicole didn't get smallpox [declared eradicated before she was born] and Serge didn't get TB [US never vaccinated routinely etc...]

So, in this case the chances are the doc would be calling every single person in, asking medical history, extrapolating what they've already received and filling in any missed gaps. Think they'd want to do everyone for influenza, though.

Nicole will suggest to Colin that it might be best to start the debate with a short film explaining what vaccinations are and why they are good [her beloved Bill Nye never did an episode on it, unfortunately]. After all, she'll point out this is mainly a 'mystical' chantry, the deacons may be on the scientific level of knowledge of the Chief [Colin might see parallels with the 70s ITV kids show Catweazle] and Bianca may play the 'stink of the Technocracy' card [Union says vaccinations are good, therefore must be bad by default].

[Warpmind]

Colin will certainly listen to Nicole's suggestion. The short film might be a good idea, yeah, next to the photos of what happened when people did not get widely vaccinated. (And some of the photos showing that antivaxxers have been around with the same flawed arguments as today, ever since vaccines first came around...)

And Colin will likely have had a number of more unusual vaccines owing to foreign military service in an area with a lot of sand, but chickenpox seems likely that he'd have missed.
He's quite keen to get updated, though, as necessary. (Guessing he had chickenpox in his childhood, though, so that vaccine might not be necessary...)

[Nicole Bouchard]

That's something the doc would have to work out; the gaps needing plugging. Good chance Colin didn't get jabbed for mumps, either [he's pre-MMR]. And as his military jabs date from Desert Storm, good chance many of them may have worn off by now [and what's the chance of there being a cholera outbreak in Boston anyway?]

While we're talking about this OOC, is it okay to introduce this topic IC? Was thinking the Cava thread; after all the kid is less likely to freak out about it if she hears second-hand Nick and Serge talking about it in neutral terms [before she finds out she's got a date with the needle too].

EDIT: Any doc worth their degree would stress that Adley and Serge getting jabbed as critical. After all, they are in one of key epidemic-causers in the advanced world: education.

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

Will point out, that unless the WoD is much different to ours regarding vaccinations, most of the 'younger' mages [born after ~1955] reared in 1st/2nd world nations would have been jabbed anyway under normal childhood programmes. So, unless everyone's being given boosters, the main folk the docs would be going after would be;
a) folk born before c1950 [too old to get normally]
b) folk who didn't get them normally due to differing vaccination schedules due to date/location [eg Colin wouldn't have got chickenpox [NHS doesn't do it, even now... as my own scars show] Nicole didn't get smallpox [declared eradicated before she was born] and Serge didn't get TB [US never vaccinated routinely etc...]

For most this is the case however magi from Europe have far fewer vaccines than USA, in Europe we tend to vaccinate against between 9 and 13 illnesses while USA do nearly 60. Also many of the younger magi have grown up in Chantries where modern medicine where just not a thing. Young American mages though will usually only need a flu shot.

So, in this case the chances are the doc would be calling every single person in, asking medical history, extrapolating what they've already received and filling in any missed gaps. Think they'd want to do everyone for influenza, though.

Agreed.

Nicole will suggest to Colin that it might be best to start the debate with a short film explaining what vaccinations are and why they are good [her beloved Bill Nye never did an episode on it, unfortunately]. After all, she'll point out this is mainly a 'mystical' chantry, the deacons may be on the scientific level of knowledge of the Chief [Colin might see parallels with the 70s ITV kids show Catweazle] and Bianca may play the 'stink of the Technocracy' card [Union says vaccinations are good, therefore must be bad by default].

A short film is a good idea. Basically there are two things Bianca will use which might sway the others, that the Union push vaccines and you can't trust the Union and that on an individual level you have a greater chance with the American vaccination to give your kid an problematic phobia and have medical issues with than than getting polio, the problem off course being that is now, if everyone stopped vaccinating their kids then the more serious illnesses would come back. She might get some listeners however as many Europeans are quite horrified over the number of vaccines USA have. In most of Europe vaccines are given one at the time with months and usually years between each and healthy individuals are not vaccinated against the flu. While in USA usually several injections are given at once, sometimes as many as five or six, and Europeans think Americans are a bit insane for this.

While we're talking about this OOC, is it okay to introduce this topic IC? Was thinking the Cava thread; after all the kid is less likely to freak out about it if she hears second-hand Nick and Serge talking about it in neutral terms [before she finds out she's got a date with the needle too].

That works for me, and basically what freaks her out most is how much of a deal Darrian is making of it, she have little experience with doctors and little reason to be scared but when he is freaking out and is worried about her that scare her.

EDIT: Any doc worth their degree would stress that Adley and Serge getting jabbed as critical. After all, they are in one of key epidemic-causers in the advanced world: education.

More than that, the problem is that A as long as Adley's Life Patterns are weakened it will be harder to heal ho from any illness he might get and also his immune system will be weaker. And anyone who are in close contact with Anna should be vaccinated since it is likely that anything that affect her heart or lungs will be unhealable.

Mages might forgo vaccines for they think anything can just be healed and usually this is true, however A you can botch a healing and then not be able to try again and Paradox can lead to illnesses which also are not healable, illnesses caused by supernaturals such as Ratkit will also be harder to heal and if someone have hardened life patterns like Anna then illnesses affecting those areas of the body will be hard to heal.

[Nicole Bouchard]

or most this is the case however magi from Europe have far fewer vaccines than USA, in Europe we tend to vaccinate against between 9 and 13 illnesses while USA do nearly 60. Also many of the younger magi have grown up in Chantries where modern medicine where just not a thing. Young American mages though will usually only need a flu shot.

Do they? A quick check is telling me that the USA's normal schedule is pretty similar to Europe's - the main 'points of argument' is over TB, chickenpox and Hepatitis A. But all are between 12-15 diseases protected from [stripping out the 'optionals']

I have a sneaking suspicion that if your numbers are correct, the 'nearly 60' may cover booster vaccinations and vaccinations done, not diseases protected from. The NHS [for example] will not push for boosters they don't think is medically required, an American doctor might so they get paid. The NHS vaccinates some 600k 2 year-olds yearly [for example] - so they can design and use combination vaccinations [9 jabs]. Americans more often use the off-shelf singles [22-24].

Hey, this is your world and can be whatever you say. Just saying it isn't that bad in the USA in RL. That and I'm an Economics grad and I was explicitly taught how to misuse and outright abuse statistics/figures when needed....

A short film is a good idea. Basically there are two things Bianca will use which might sway the others, that the Union push vaccines and you can't trust the Union and that on an individual level you have a greater chance with the American vaccination to give your kid an problematic phobia and have medical issues with than than getting polio, the problem off course being that is now, if everyone stopped vaccinating their kids then the more serious illnesses would come back. She might get some listeners however as many Europeans are quite horrified over the number of vaccines USA have. In most of Europe vaccines are given one at the time with months and usually years between each and healthy individuals are not vaccinated against the flu. While in USA usually several injections are given at once, sometimes as many as five or six, and Europeans think Americans are a bit insane for this.

Well, Nick's predicted the first tactic. She wouldn't have predicted the second but she would have pointed out to Colin that most of the mages under ~65 would have had some of the jabs already done - the doc's job here would merely be 'filling in the gaps' and perhaps a few boosters [which Dry Dock did as standard routine, and is a little surprised Steelhaven doesn't]. Adley/Serge is unlikely to be due hardly any; they're both young, from [I guess] fairly good families and raised in the USA, so the normal ones would have been done already.

And Nicole would be very, very annoyed if the Ratkin do the Birthing Plague on her...

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