An Army of Ghosts, A Sad Nephanda and two Angels IC Thread 40

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

(OOC: Colin and Adley are down in the basement talking with Kallan the Nephandi prisoner. Nicole is with Jon going room by room checking for hostiles, Serge are in the Common room filling Freddy and Francesca in on what have happened. Tane is still with his shapeshifter friends. Happy gaming all.)

[Nicole Bouchard]

[Chantry Second Floor]

Anja's Post:

'Yeah, they won't believe you. Desperate people usually don't.'

Anja's Post:

'Ok...ay, so everything is fine, then?' ending with a little frown.

[Warpmind]

[Basement]

"Then how are you going to do it then Mr Wainwright how are you going to get the girl to be willing to be alive and able to walk and talk down the line, most do not want to live after..."
Marian shuddered.
"Poor kid."

Colin frowned, "Well, I'll have to pull off another miracle, I guess... I'm working toward arranging a few of those already, so what's one more, right?"
He sighed, "One way, which I think might be possible, is to cobble together a new one from scraps, as it were... It won't be easy, but I'm going to have a word with Master Telar about the possibility - if anyone can do it, she can."

"I am not saying that most would not do anything to get a new Avatar if they had lost the old one Traditionalist, what I am saying is that the promise of a new one will not make the prospect of...Gilgul...less terrifying."
Kallan said and he shivered slightly.
"It is no less horrifying even if one might be able to regain magick later."

He nodded, "That much is true..."
He swallowed, mouth suddenly dry, "I know how much it hurts... all too well and personally. But a glimmer of light at the other end of the tunnel might help hold on to sanity, at the very least..."

"If you try enough times you will get a perfect world and if perfection is not attained it is better that the world never exist than for it to be this pale mockery."
Kallan replied darkly.

He shook his head, "The problem with that being that you only get one attempt. And considering how there are things out there that are echoes and fragments of prior existences that were unmade before our existence, and those things are actively trying to unmake our world, I'd say we're not going to get a perfect world by scrapping it and starting anew, because there'll always be fragments of the previous seeping in to ruin everything..."

"Indeed so and it is best to just scrap the whole thing and try again for a better world, a more perfect world."
The Nephandus replied with conviction.
"There is no redemption for this decrepit reality."

He shook his head, "That's where I disagree - it'd be a lot easier to try to improve things, to make things right, if not the Malfeans had decided to take over the Nephandi and turn the whole faction against Creation itself... That, in my humble opinion, was a mistake, and one not easily corrected."

Kallan looked sadly at you for a while then he sigh.
"I guess I started down this path when I lost my apprentices. I had five students, but they all died, I lost them all, they where killed by the Union, or died from Paradox, over a period of a few years, all of them, one after the other."
He said with tears in his eyes.
"This made me realize that there was something very wrong in this reality, that it is wrong. My youngest apprentice was just a child of ten when Paradox made him ill and he...died, slowly, painfully he died, no world where such pain is possible is worth having and I found the answer in Cabala and other belief systems that have the idea that the world have been destroyed and re created many times, it is time for this world to end now, for it to have never been."
The Nephandus said then he shook his head.
"And if I needed further proof now I will loose Kira as well, the world have turned evil and must be gone."

He frowned, "My condolences for your apprentices; you are right, there is something wrong in this world... I just disagree that it is irreparable and so deeply rooted that unraveling the whole thing is the only solution. Granted, the Entropic Principle does dictate that a closed system will decay into absolute entropy over time... I'm just not certain Creation is a closed system. And if it's not... then trying to erase it to start over is doubly flawed, as you can be damn sure refugees from the old world will have managed to escape and will make their way back to the new one to carry on... just like some other things I could think of."

((OOC: Okay, yeah, that is fair. Colin's probably going to be a little irritated, but so is anyone else with private wards, then, I guess... ))

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

[Chantry Second Floor]

'Yeah, they won't believe you. Desperate people usually don't.'

"I doubt they would even notice I was there."
Jon said with a sigh.

'Ok...ay, so everything is fine, then?' ending with a little frown.

"Well other than us being attacked, and the younger kids being scared and Anna overextending herself, Yes Miss Bouchard everything is fine."
Yu Die said.
"Did you want to come in Miss?"

[Basement]

Colin frowned, "Well, I'll have to pull off another miracle, I guess... I'm working toward arranging a few of those already, so what's one more, right?"
He sighed, "One way, which I think might be possible, is to cobble together a new one from scraps, as it were... It won't be easy, but I'm going to have a word with Master Telar about the possibility - if anyone can do it, she can."

"Cobble together a new Avatar from scraps? Seriously we are talking about souls not broken pottery."
Marian said and he raised an eyebrow.
"You really think that would work? I guess if you could give the kid a new Avatar that would work but what if she just Fal again, that is if what you are saying is even possible."

He nodded, "That much is true..."
He swallowed, mouth suddenly dry, "I know how much it hurts... all too well and personally. But a glimmer of light at the other end of the tunnel might help hold on to sanity, at the very least..."

"How...can you know how much...it hurts?"
The Nephandus asked he had turned even paler and looked away.
"But yes...perhaps the promise of getting her magick back will keep someone who go through that alive, if it is even possible."

He shook his head, "The problem with that being that you only get one attempt. And considering how there are things out there that are echoes and fragments of prior existences that were unmade before our existence, and those things are actively trying to unmake our world, I'd say we're not going to get a perfect world by scrapping it and starting anew, because there'll always be fragments of the previous seeping in to ruin everything..."

"That is why one have to be extra sure one destroy the old reality completely."
Kallan said simply dismissing your point.

He shook his head, "That's where I disagree - it'd be a lot easier to try to improve things, to make things right, if not the Malfeans had decided to take over the Nephandi and turn the whole faction against Creation itself... That, in my humble opinion, was a mistake, and one not easily corrected."

"We have a noble agenda Traditionalist, before us the Nephandi where just a disparate gang of devil worshipers and infernalists with no direction or goal other than survival and protection from other groups of mages who wanted them dead, The Malfeans turned the Nephandi into what it is today. And no this world have had enough chances at ficing the problems, it is time it stops existing."
The prisoner declared proudly.

He frowned, "My condolences for your apprentices; you are right, there is something wrong in this world... I just disagree that it is irreparable and so deeply rooted that unraveling the whole thing is the only solution. Granted, the Entropic Principle does dictate that a closed system will decay into absolute entropy over time... I'm just not certain Creation is a closed system. And if it's not... then trying to erase it to start over is doubly flawed, as you can be damn sure refugees from the old world will have managed to escape and will make their way back to the new one to carry on... just like some other things I could think of."

"According to the Cabala Jehovah is a vindictive, but sloppy asshole, so this time we are just having to make sure that we get rid of every bit of this reality so there will be nothing left to taint the new world."
Kallan said seaming unconvinced.
"Just like I said a few moments ago."

(OOC: Yeah there are few who will be unhappy having proper Chantry wards might make up for it though.)

[Nicole Bouchard]

[Chantry Second Floor]

Anja's Post:

'No time. I'll send someone over to keep an eye on you lot as soon as.' the Etherite replied.

[Warpmind]

[Basement]

"Cobble together a new Avatar from scraps? Seriously we are talking about souls not broken pottery."
Marian said and he raised an eyebrow.
"You really think that would work? I guess if you could give the kid a new Avatar that would work but what if she just Fal again, that is if what you are saying is even possible."

Colin nodded thoughtfully, "I think it has a chance of working... we've learned a few things about such possibilities recently - and I think she could be convinced to join our side instead; she'd likely be kept under close scrutiny..."

"How...can you know how much...it hurts?"
The Nephandus asked he had turned even paler and looked away.
"But yes...perhaps the promise of getting her magick back will keep someone who go through that alive, if it is even possible."

He frowned, "Some of my shards... have memories. What sort of memories do you think they'd all share?"

"That is why one have to be extra sure one destroy the old reality completely."
Kallan said simply dismissing your point.

He arched an eyebrow, "And how would you ensure you yourself managed to stay conscious and aware until all else was gone, and then manage to unmake yourself in the process?"

"We have a noble agenda Traditionalist, before us the Nephandi where just a disparate gang of devil worshipers and infernalists with no direction or goal other than survival and protection from other groups of mages who wanted them dead, The Malfeans turned the Nephandi into what it is today. And no this world have had enough chances at ficing the problems, it is time it stops existing."
The prisoner declared proudly.

He frowned, giving Adley a half-apologetic glance, "Before you, the Nephandi were a band of refugees from a needlessly vicious Order of Hermes, and the Malfeans turned on the other Nephandi with the same ultimatum the Order of Hermes offered, 'join or die'. The difference was that the Malfeans required their members to have their Avatars shredded, wrung, and cobbled back together in a disorderly fashion... At least, that's the story told to me by someone who was there at the time..."

"According to the Cabala Jehovah is a vindictive, but sloppy asshole, so this time we are just having to make sure that we get rid of every bit of this reality so there will be nothing left to taint the new world."
Kallan said seaming unconvinced.
"Just like I said a few moments ago."

He shrugged, "Well, I'm not disputing that statement; he's not infallible, either - but there's a school of thought I've come across that suggests he gave humanity free will, so that we could fix the stuff he didn't put together right. We're Magi, we've got the power to make the world a better place. I figure that gives us an obligation to do so, but humanity will be the tallest order... Still, we could pull it off if we weren't besieged by unrepentant nihilists trying to kick over the sandcastle every ten minutes..."

((OOC: True enough - and a ward like Colin's won't be a big problem putting back up. Hell, Morgan might want to learn it to add it to the whole Chantry's defenses, too.))

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

[Chantry Second Floor]

'No time. I'll send someone over to keep an eye on you lot as soon as.' the Etherite replied.

"Thank you Ma'am, you do not need to though I have been instructed in how to care for Anna and she is resting with her breathing mask on so she should be fine and Miss Alexander is still in a Seeking but she seam to be okey."
Yu Die said politely.

[Basement]

Colin nodded thoughtfully, "I think it has a chance of working... we've learned a few things about such possibilities recently - and I think she could be convinced to join our side instead; she'd likely be kept under close scrutiny..."

"Well it is worth checking into."
Marian said but he sounded rather doubtful.

He frowned, "Some of my shards... have memories. What sort of memories do you think they'd all share?"

"Ah...ehm...shit that must be rather unpleasant."
The Nephandus said and he shuddered.
"I am not looking forward to it...but hey there is always the chance I manage to escape before then eh."
He said not really sounding like he believed much in that possibility.

He arched an eyebrow, "And how would you ensure you yourself managed to stay conscious and aware until all else was gone, and then manage to unmake yourself in the process?"

"I do not know, not yet, if I knew I would have already done it, most likely I will never experience it, such projects takes a long time but it is a goal worth fighting for."
Kallan replied.

He frowned, giving Adley a half-apologetic glance, "Before you, the Nephandi were a band of refugees from a needlessly vicious Order of Hermes, and the Malfeans turned on the other Nephandi with the same ultimatum the Order of Hermes offered, 'join or die'. The difference was that the Malfeans required their members to have their Avatars shredded, wrung, and cobbled back together in a disorderly fashion... At least, that's the story told to me by someone who was there at the time..."

"That is pretty much right yes and in so doing we gave the Nephandi a direction, focus, and a noble goal to fight for."
The prisoner replied proudly.

He shrugged, "Well, I'm not disputing that statement; he's not infallible, either - but there's a school of thought I've come across that suggests he gave humanity free will, so that we could fix the stuff he didn't put together right. We're Magi, we've got the power to make the world a better place. I figure that gives us an obligation to do so, but humanity will be the tallest order... Still, we could pull it off if we weren't besieged by unrepentant nihilists trying to kick over the sandcastle every ten minutes..."

"What this Celestine have or have not done is up for discussion, what is true, what are myths made by humans who seek power, it do nto matter, what matters is that reality needs to be undone, there is no redemption to be had for this existence, it must be wiped out so a better one can rise up in it's stead."
The Nephandus said with determination in his voice.

(OOC: Yeah Jeffry might want to learn Colin's scrambler.)

[Jeremy Silverstein]

[Common Room]

"They could have but it is hard to know since they could have put the spirit in a trance by other means, knowing his true name is pretty serious."
Fran said with a frown.
"Hopefully the Chief will figure it out eventually."

"They knew how to mess with the guardian and how to get past our wards. Not to mention attacking when a couple of us were on missions." Serge mused. "Definitely feels like a planned attack. One that they gathered the pieces for and held onto until the right time to strike."

Freddy nodded at that.
"We got lucky then."
The Virtual Adept replied.
"What are our status right now? Where can we help?"

"Cleanup right now. Wounds are being tended to, prisoners are being escorted, and what little damage was done to the chantry is being mended. You could help out with one of those tasks or ask the chief if he's got any other jobs he wants done." he replied.

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

[Common Room]

"They knew how to mess with the guardian and how to get past our wards. Not to mention attacking when a couple of us were on missions." Serge mused. "Definitely feels like a planned attack. One that they gathered the pieces for and held onto until the right time to strike."

"Yes it was definitively planned but that do not explain how they did it or how they got Uncle Willard's name, and we need to know how such a thing could happen."
Freddy said with a frown.

"Cleanup right now. Wounds are being tended to, prisoners are being escorted, and what little damage was done to the chantry is being mended. You could help out with one of those tasks or ask the chief if he's got any other jobs he wants done." he replied.

"We will probably go and ask the Chief what he needs done."
Fran said and Freddy nodded.
"We will see you later then Mr Yager."
Freddy said.
"Unless there was anything else?"

[Jeremy Silverstein]

[Common Room]

"Yes it was definitively planned but that do not explain how they did it or how they got Uncle Willard's name, and we need to know how such a thing could happen."
Freddy said with a frown.

"We will probably go and ask the Chief what he needs done."
Fran said and Freddy nodded.
"We will see you later then Mr Yager."
Freddy said.
"Unless there was anything else?"

"Nothing else springs to mind. Hopefully we can figure all this out soon. See ya later." Serge said waving goodbye to the duo before continuing on getting water for Kallan.

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

[Common Room]

"Thanks for the information Mr Yager. And we will figure it out eventually, we have to."
Freddy said before she and Fran headed off. You got a glass of water from the kitchen.

[Adley]

He nodded to Colin, as he showed him the phone recording and lapsed into silent attention as the two traded the whole of the reason. At first, Kallen didn't tell him /why/ just what steps, but it soon came to the truth - he was grieving, and in anger and sadness had decided the world was on fire and he should pour on the fuel and be done with it. He didn't say anything or interject for a while until there seemed a natural pause. He glanced at his cabalmate. "Forgive me for my intrusion, I did not mean to linger or interrupt." And then he said to Kallan, "For what it is worth, I am sorry for the losses of your apprentices. Truly and honestly. And there is truth that too much of either pillar leads to imbalance - the heart suffers. In the natural path even ayin, clothes itself in yesh; existence perpetuates after being not, is being. To cease that carries a heavy sentence and is not 'a new world' as you speak, but beyond our or at least my comprehension of even void, for void contains space for something, like a placeholder. The avatars of your apprentices will not reincarnate in utter absolute nothingness...the pillar in the void and the creation of the green under new wings will not unfurl. Or in the origin beliefs, confusion and rectification will not solve by transformation." He sighed. "There are apprentices here too and many children and people in the world that would like a chance to exist despite the odds. We resist being condemned, as well as being made to suffer due to actions of the Nephandi along the way." He regarded him with empathy in his voice. "Grief is a powerful thing. To turn your back on all that is and head for withdrawl is understandable - for a time, to heal when things are so bad. To ask what is the point of existence, when you have lost so much of what you care about and to want to know who is responsible. To want revenge. Yet a caul...found you while you wrestled with that. Your spark darkened. The eye, ayin, is the illumination of the soul. When it darkens too, it shadows your existence further and makes it harder to see any good left. But others may still find something worthy, transform imperfections on their paths."

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

[Basement]

And then he said to Kallan, "For what it is worth, I am sorry for the losses of your apprentices. Truly and honestly.

Kallan seamed surprised at this for a moment at he looked up at you then he nodded.
"Thank you."
He muttered sadly.

And there is truth that too much of either pillar leads to imbalance - the heart suffers. In the natural path even ayin, clothes itself in yesh; existence perpetuates after being not, is being. To cease that carries a heavy sentence and is not 'a new world' as you speak, but beyond our or at least my comprehension of even void, for void contains space for something, like a placeholder. The avatars of your apprentices will not reincarnate in utter absolute nothingness...the pillar in the void and the creation of the green under new wings will not unfurl. Or in the origin beliefs, confusion and rectification will not solve by transformation."

This gave the Nephandus pause for a moment then he sigh and glanced up at you again.
"You are a Hermetic then?"
He asked.
"It is true that we...can not understand nothingness, even I can not understand it. And it do...make me hesitate that if the tree is destroyed, burned to the ground and gone, my apprentices will not be reborn, but it is better for them not to be born again to suffer and eventually die in an imperfect world. Yes i can not know exactly what will come after, the void is by it's very nature unknowable, but this world is intolerable it must end."

"There are apprentices here too and many children and people in the world that would like a chance to exist despite the odds. We resist being condemned, as well as being made to suffer due to actions of the Nephandi along the way."

"I do not wish for their pain and suffering, I don't and unmaking the world will most likely take a long time, the children at this Chantry, the apprentices will grow up and grow old old before the Nephandi accomplish their goals, we have to continue working towards those goals though...we must."
The prisoner said but a bit softer than before.

He regarded him with empathy in his voice. "Grief is a powerful thing. To turn your back on all that is and head for withdrawl is understandable - for a time, to heal when things are so bad. To ask what is the point of existence, when you have lost so much of what you care about and to want to know who is responsible. To want revenge. Yet a caul...found you while you wrestled with that. Your spark darkened. The eye, ayin, is the illumination of the soul. When it darkens too, it shadows your existence further and makes it harder to see any good left. But others may still find something worthy, transform imperfections on their paths."

"I...darkened, every time I lost one of my apprentices...the first time pride came with the grief, Alec was a warrior he died defending his Chantry against a Union attack, but then a few months later Lillian died, her Cabal was attacked, Lillian told her Cabalmates to run and cast a death spell, taking out the Amalgam trying to take down her Cabal, the rest of them survived but my apprentice died. Richard my second oldest was gunned down on the street like a dog, we assume the Union did it...and then there was Tilan, he was just a boy and he got sick from paradox, he got honey sickness, this was before there was any good treatments, we tried to keep him alive but eventually he...went blind and then...he fell asleep and never woke up again. Arisha was dragged into a Paradox realm and was never seen again...I lost them one after another, these young mages I had Awakened, taught magick, trained...my children and they died...and each time I knew with more certinty that the world had to go. Ayin is beautiful, a state of perfect potential, where everything have the potential to be but nothing is, until Chochmah, the first spark of Divine creation ruined it. But Ayin are there in most religions, the Egyptians had the river of potential that ran before Kepher created creation by creating himself, and I want that river back, in the river no one would ever die, no one would ever experience loss, ever again, and yes the Caul that found me helped me realize this and for that I am grateful. I willingly went with the Nightmare Carnivale, and I suffered as I was thorn apart and reformed but it was worth it, I will help bring back the nothingness in which no pain exist, and from that river, when Chohmah again create itself, the world that arrise will be better, it must be."
The Nephandus said tears now flowed down his pale cheeks and he turned away as best he could.

[Adley]

[Basement]

"What the Nephandi seek is not a new world. It is Not. No pan but no joy no hate but no love. No river. No existing. Not Ein Sof. Even if you say it will take a long time, the soul is eternal and it is a path of extinguishing. Your avatar would remember those that you loved and those avatars reborn remember too, joys and pains and what is both. The first spark gave us the ability to perceive ourselves, and to make chioices. All we can ask is for you to think about who you are protecting when you choose now - those bent on visiting others with revenge and hatred, perpetuating suffering, having no fidelity even to their own apprentices for I have seen them throw them into sacrifice...what becomes acceptible and permissible when you tell yourself you are saving them by unmaking them?...pain you seek to absolve yourself of, or those that, even if we are naive to believe so, have been able to retain hope if not for ourselves then others, or another cycle."

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

[Basement]

"What the Nephandi seek is not a new world. It is Not. No pan but no joy no hate but no love. No river. No existing. Not Ein Sof. Even if you say it will take a long time, the soul is eternal and it is a path of extinguishing. Your avatar would remember those that you loved and those avatars reborn remember too, joys and pains and what is both. The first spark gave us the ability to perceive ourselves, and to make chioices. All we can ask is for you to think about who you are protecting when you choose now - those bent on visiting others with revenge and hatred, perpetuating suffering, having no fidelity even to their own apprentices for I have seen them throw them into sacrifice...what becomes acceptible and permissible when you tell yourself you are saving them by unmaking them?...pain you seek to absolve yourself of, or those that, even if we are naive to believe so, have been able to retain hope if not for ourselves then others, or another cycle."

"I ehm...what the Nephandi want vary, some Malfeans want like me for a new world to be sparked when the old one dies, what we can agree on is that this existence must end, though most also want there to be no new existence after this that forever there will be nothing."
Kallan said then he sigh.
"As for apprentices yes that is true the Nephandi are harsh, I have never claimed other, we walk a dark path and while not all of us desire the suffering of others cruelty are encouraged and eventually as Jhor build and we become less and less that cruelty do grow, but this is the path I am walking, that my apprentice is waking, and I will not let our sacrifice be in vain. The Traditions are planning on destroying our Avatars, that we fought the Traditions and lost, that we become martyrs for our cause that still mean something. I will not abandon my path and have it mean nothing, that would be far to painful."
The Nephandus said softly.
"And the fact to remain that this world is corrupt, and it must go, there are far to much pain and suffering here, though I might personally hope that after that unmaking, a new world will be woven in it's place."

[Jeremy Silverstein]

[Common Room]

"Thanks for the information Mr Yager. And we will figure it out eventually, we have to."
Freddy said before she and Fran headed off. You got a glass of water from the kitchen.

Serge headed back down to the basement and to the prisoner, glass of water in hand.

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

[Bastement]

"Serge if you don't need me right now I am heading up to the infirmary to see if Dr Lee need any help with the prisoner and also to see if anyone need any help getting up there."
Ryan said and then depending on what you said he headed for the stairs to do as he said he would leaving you to get some water to the prisoner.

You got down to the basement. Marian was still on guard duty. You could hear that Colin and Adley was now talking with Kallan, and the prisoner and your Cabalmate was apparently in full on Hermetic modus, discussing the virtue or lack there of of the fall through Cabalistic symbolism.

[Warpmind]

[Basement]

"Well it is worth checking into."
Marian said but he sounded rather doubtful.

Colin nodded, "I think the idea has merit, but it's not something that can be easily replicated..."

"Ah...ehm...shit that must be rather unpleasant."
The Nephandus said and he shuddered.
"I am not looking forward to it...but hey there is always the chance I manage to escape before then eh."
He said not really sounding like he believed much in that possibility.

He nodded, voice tinder dry, "I... have better memories. Not saying it was more or less pleasant than jumping into Larson's Caul, but... it's certainly a comparable experience. One I would not wish on my worst enemy."

"I do not know, not yet, if I knew I would have already done it, most likely I will never experience it, such projects takes a long time but it is a goal worth fighting for."
Kallan replied.

He frowned, "If you merely sought to unmake yourself, I'd have fewer objections, it's dragging the rest of the world along with you, against everyone's will that I must protest... Well, agree to disagree, as they say?"

"That is pretty much right yes and in so doing we gave the Nephandi a direction, focus, and a noble goal to fight for."
The prisoner replied proudly.

He snorted, "You took a newspaper to a scared dog that had run away after being beaten once too often... not a particularly proud moment in your history, I should say..."

"What this Celestine have or have not done is up for discussion, what is true, what are myths made by humans who seek power, it do nto matter, what matters is that reality needs to be undone, there is no redemption to be had for this existence, it must be wiped out so a better one can rise up in it's stead."
The Nephandus said with determination in his voice.

He shrugged, "That is the purpose of the Cycle - Creation, Stagnation, Decay - but what Qlippothic magic does is corrupt the natural order of things to turn the stable cycle into a Black Spiral... If the Cycle is allowed to work as it's supposed to, things will decay, and something new will arise in its stead, but if things are allowed to spiral..."

He nodded to Colin, as he showed him the phone recording and lapsed into silent attention as the two traded the whole of the reason. At first, Kallen didn't tell him /why/ just what steps, but it soon came to the truth - he was grieving, and in anger and sadness had decided the world was on fire and he should pour on the fuel and be done with it. He didn't say anything or interject for a while until there seemed a natural pause. He glanced at his cabalmate. "Forgive me for my intrusion, I did not mean to linger or interrupt."

He nodded, leaning back.

And there is truth that too much of either pillar leads to imbalance - the heart suffers. In the natural path even ayin, clothes itself in yesh; existence perpetuates after being not, is being. To cease that carries a heavy sentence and is not 'a new world' as you speak, but beyond our or at least my comprehension of even void, for void contains space for something, like a placeholder. The avatars of your apprentices will not reincarnate in utter absolute nothingness...the pillar in the void and the creation of the green under new wings will not unfurl. Or in the origin beliefs, confusion and rectification will not solve by transformation."

This gave the Nephandus pause for a moment then he sigh and glanced up at you again.
"You are a Hermetic then?"
He asked.
"It is true that we...can not understand nothingness, even I can not understand it. And it do...make me hesitate that if the tree is destroyed, burned to the ground and gone, my apprentices will not be reborn, but it is better for them not to be born again to suffer and eventually die in an imperfect world. Yes i can not know exactly what will come after, the void is by it's very nature unknowable, but this world is intolerable it must end."

"There are apprentices here too and many children and people in the world that would like a chance to exist despite the odds. We resist being condemned, as well as being made to suffer due to actions of the Nephandi along the way."

"I do not wish for their pain and suffering, I don't and unmaking the world will most likely take a long time, the children at this Chantry, the apprentices will grow up and grow old old before the Nephandi accomplish their goals, we have to continue working towards those goals though...we must."
The prisoner said but a bit softer than before.

He regarded him with empathy in his voice. "Grief is a powerful thing. To turn your back on all that is and head for withdrawl is understandable - for a time, to heal when things are so bad. To ask what is the point of existence, when you have lost so much of what you care about and to want to know who is responsible. To want revenge. Yet a caul...found you while you wrestled with that. Your spark darkened. The eye, ayin, is the illumination of the soul. When it darkens too, it shadows your existence further and makes it harder to see any good left. But others may still find something worthy, transform imperfections on their paths."

"I...darkened, every time I lost one of my apprentices...the first time pride came with the grief, Alec was a warrior he died defending his Chantry against a Union attack, but then a few months later Lillian died, her Cabal was attacked, Lillian told her Cabalmates to run and cast a death spell, taking out the Amalgam trying to take down her Cabal, the rest of them survived but my apprentice died. Richard my second oldest was gunned down on the street like a dog, we assume the Union did it...and then there was Tilan, he was just a boy and he got sick from paradox, he got honey sickness, this was before there was any good treatments, we tried to keep him alive but eventually he...went blind and then...he fell asleep and never woke up again. Arisha was dragged into a Paradox realm and was never seen again...I lost them one after another, these young mages I had Awakened, taught magick, trained...my children and they died...and each time I knew with more certinty that the world had to go. Ayin is beautiful, a state of perfect potential, where everything have the potential to be but nothing is, until Chochmah, the first spark of Divine creation ruined it. But Ayin are there in most religions, the Egyptians had the river of potential that ran before Kepher created creation by creating himself, and I want that river back, in the river no one would ever die, no one would ever experience loss, ever again, and yes the Caul that found me helped me realize this and for that I am grateful. I willingly went with the Nightmare Carnivale, and I suffered as I was thorn apart and reformed but it was worth it, I will help bring back the nothingness in which no pain exist, and from that river, when Chohmah again create itself, the world that arrise will be better, it must be."
The Nephandus said tears now flowed down his pale cheeks and he turned away as best he could.

He frowned, trying to follow the Qaballistic debate, but arched an eyebrow as Kallan told of what happened to his apprentices, and frowned, "The losses of your apprentices would be terrible even separated by decades, but especially the diabetes is a rotten way to lose a child... But the Ayin, in a state of pure potential, how could it be called beautiful? Oh, it certainly has the potential to be beautiful, but also the potential for ugliness in equal measure, but... what good is it to have no death or loss, when there is no life, no identity, no distinction... Humans need these things to know we are alive, that we exist, both the good and the bad."

"What the Nephandi seek is not a new world. It is Not. No pan but no joy no hate but no love. No river. No existing. Not Ein Sof. Even if you say it will take a long time, the soul is eternal and it is a path of extinguishing. Your avatar would remember those that you loved and those avatars reborn remember too, joys and pains and what is both. The first spark gave us the ability to perceive ourselves, and to make chioices. All we can ask is for you to think about who you are protecting when you choose now - those bent on visiting others with revenge and hatred, perpetuating suffering, having no fidelity even to their own apprentices for I have seen them throw them into sacrifice...what becomes acceptible and permissible when you tell yourself you are saving them by unmaking them?...pain you seek to absolve yourself of, or those that, even if we are naive to believe so, have been able to retain hope if not for ourselves then others, or another cycle."

"I ehm...what the Nephandi want vary, some Malfeans want like me for a new world to be sparked when the old one dies, what we can agree on is that this existence must end, though most also want there to be no new existence after this that forever there will be nothing."
Kallan said then he sigh.
"As for apprentices yes that is true the Nephandi are harsh, I have never claimed other, we walk a dark path and while not all of us desire the suffering of others cruelty are encouraged and eventually as Jhor build and we become less and less that cruelty do grow, but this is the path I am walking, that my apprentice is waking, and I will not let our sacrifice be in vain. The Traditions are planning on destroying our Avatars, that we fought the Traditions and lost, that we become martyrs for our cause that still mean something. I will not abandon my path and have it mean nothing, that would be far to painful."
The Nephandus said softly.
"And the fact to remain that this world is corrupt, and it must go, there are far to much pain and suffering here, though I might personally hope that after that unmaking, a new world will be woven in it's place."

He frowned, "The world is corrupt, true, but much of that corruption is the Malfeans' own doing. It's like a child standing on your porch with a hammer and a grin, telling you your window has been smashed..."

[Nicole Bouchard]

[Chantry Second Floor]

Anja's Post:

'Was more thinking about if we're attacked again.' Nicole replied evenly, knowing full well that the kid might take it as a slight that they needed "minding".

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

[Basement]

Colin nodded, "I think the idea has merit, but it's not something that can be easily replicated..."

"Well it would be nice if it could be, that would give hope to those like Mr Gregario and his young apprentice, that being said damn but that Mercere can fight, he have a few rather fancy talismans."
Marian agreed with a nod.

He nodded, voice tinder dry, "I... have better memories. Not saying it was more or less pleasant than jumping into Larson's Caul, but... it's certainly a comparable experience. One I would not wish on my worst enemy."

Kallan looked up at you looking scared.
"And yet it is what you are helping with being done to me, which is fine I guess I am an adult Nephandus but also Kira who is just an apprentice...just a child, she do not deserve to go through that!"
He muttered sadly.

He frowned, "If you merely sought to unmake yourself, I'd have fewer objections, it's dragging the rest of the world along with you, against everyone's will that I must protest... Well, agree to disagree, as they say?"

"Yes it do not seam like we need to discuss this in further detail I do not think will come to an agreement."
The prisoner said with a sigh.

He snorted, "You took a newspaper to a scared dog that had run away after being beaten once too often... not a particularly proud moment in your history, I should say..."

"Yeah for the Traditions have never had one faction drive it down one direction or another at the cost of those who do not want to walk that path, perhaps you should sweep before your own door before judging others."
The Nephandus replied tartly.

He shrugged, "That is the purpose of the Cycle - Creation, Stagnation, Decay - but what Qlippothic magic does is corrupt the natural order of things to turn the stable cycle into a Black Spiral... If the Cycle is allowed to work as it's supposed to, things will decay, and something new will arise in its stead, but if things are allowed to spiral..."

"The cycle is corrupted and need to go, it bring with it only pain and suffering it must be broken down and be gone."
Kallan said simply.

He frowned, trying to follow the Qaballistic debate, but arched an eyebrow as Kallan told of what happened to his apprentices, and frowned, "The losses of your apprentices would be terrible even separated by decades, but especially the diabetes is a rotten way to lose a child...

"Yes...watching the boy get sicker and sicker and die was the worst death of the all, and the horrible irony is that if he had been born a few decades later there would be a cure, well not a cure but at least a treatment."
Kallan said bitterly.

But the Ayin, in a state of pure potential, how could it be called beautiful? Oh, it certainly has the potential to be beautiful, but also the potential for ugliness in equal measure, but... what good is it to have no death or loss, when there is no life, no identity, no distinction... Humans need these things to know we are alive, that we exist, both the good and the bad."

"That everything have the potential to be but nothing actually do is beautiful, though the whole concept of beauty as well would not exist, and the whole point is not not know we are alive, to not be alive, to not in fact exist, one do not need pain or joy to know one exist when one do not exist, when nothing exist."
The Nephandus said and he shook his head.
"You fail Nephandi 101 here Traditionalist."

He frowned, "The world is corrupt, true, but much of that corruption is the Malfeans' own doing. It's like a child standing on your porch with a hammer and a grin, telling you your window has been smashed..."

"No it is like when a child stand on your porch with a hammer saying that your window was an eyesore but they have now broken it for you."
Kallan replied simply.
"Yes we spread corruption as a way to make the world decay and be gone faster."

[Chantry Second Floor]

'Was more thinking about if we're attacked again.' Nicole replied evenly, knowing full well that the kid might take it as a slight that they needed "minding".

"Oh...yeah that is a really good point Ma'am."
Yu Die said and nodded.
"Do you think we will be attacked again? What about Kyle and his cousin who's name I have forgotten and Cava and Jane, are they okey? They would need protection as well."
The young Akashic replied.

[Adley]

[Basement]

"I ehm...what the Nephandi want vary, some Malfeans want like me for a new world to be sparked when the old one dies, what we can agree on is that this existence must end, though most also want there to be no new existence after this that forever there will be nothing."
Kallan said then he sigh.

"You work together, riding along thinking that you can still get your way to spark a new world - but that is not how they operate. Do you really think that they would allow that? More likely over time they apply pressure as a fallen avatar is incarnated again as a widderslainte..."

"As for apprentices yes that is true the Nephandi are harsh, I have never claimed other, we walk a dark path and while not all of us desire the suffering of others cruelty are encouraged and eventually as Jhor build and we become less and less that cruelty do grow, but this is the path I am walking, that my apprentice is waking, and I will not let our sacrifice be in vain. The Traditions are planning on destroying our Avatars, that we fought the Traditions and lost, that we become martyrs for our cause that still mean something. I will not abandon my path and have it mean nothing, that would be far to painful."
The Nephandus said softly.
"And the fact to remain that this world is corrupt, and it must go, there are far to much pain and suffering here, though I might personally hope that after that unmaking, a new world will be woven in it's place."

"I assume you were once a hermetic magus - and you had apprentices then. Perhaps some of those you have named, even reincarnated. If you work with the Nephandi, especially the ones that we are discussing, your apprentices who fought for what they loved and believed to be worthy will not only be dead but unwritten, their sacrifices nothing. Their Names will be not, erased and all that they did not. Their avatars which would remember them, and who likely remember you also when you were with them, also unmade to nothing. There will not be a new world born. As they unmake it they will cause untold suffering. You have a choice right now and I can think of few better people to tell than him," he said, nodding to Colin.

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

[Basement]

"You work together, riding along thinking that you can still get your way to spark a new world - but that is not how they operate. Do you really think that they would allow that? More likely over time they apply pressure as a fallen avatar is incarnated again as a widderslainte..."

"It is true tha the Black Spiral take it's toll and that eventually as you walk it you will become more and more corrupted and with that corruption come cruelty and most end up wanting that along with nothingness, but it is not a requirement to be cruel to be a Nephandus, though eventually most get there."
Kallan said with a sigh.
"The same most eventually come to desire complete non existence and not the creation of a new world once this one is gone, but not all of us think that, I still want a new, perfect word, but there is no chance this corrupted hellhole will become that."

"I assume you were once a hermetic magus - and you had apprentices then. Perhaps some of those you have named, even reincarnated. If you work with the Nephandi, especially the ones that we are discussing, your apprentices who fought for what they loved and believed to be worthy will not only be dead but unwritten, their sacrifices nothing. Their Names will be not, erased and all that they did not. Their avatars which would remember them, and who likely remember you also when you were with them, also unmade to nothing. There will not be a new world born. As they unmake it they will cause untold suffering. You have a choice right now and I can think of few better people to tell than him," he said, nodding to Colin.

This gave the prisoner pause and he looked up at you looking shocked.
"They...would be unmade to...my apprentices..."
He whispered.
"Most of them would be reborn by now most likely, they could be alive right now in the Traditions for all I know I...I...never thought about that...that they would have never existed as well I..."
Kallan looked at you for a long while then he glanced at Colin and shook his head.
"But it must mean something. I can not betray the Nephandi now, not with what the Traditions plan to do to my Avatar...to Kira's Avatar, that can not be for nothing that would be to much to bare..."
He whispered. and looked away.
"Just to much to bare."
The prisoner clearly fought to hold back tears and he stared into the wall.
"But yes I named them...as apprentices, four of them went through their Gauntlets and by that earned the right to name themselves as Magi, but my little boy...he bore the name I gave him as an apprentice when he died..."

[Adley]

[Basement]

"Everything, everyone, and yes their avatars as well, perhaps reincarnated as new magii. You can choose otherwise, even now, for if you do not it /would/ be for nothing. All of it for nothing is what they want, quite literally. Forgive me but I did not get your Name, but I did hear theirs; please consider them," he said. He gestured with a hand towards Colin, then turned to leave. The man would either decide to tell them something more or keep his silence but he felt he should leave so he would have a moment to make that choice.

[Warpmind]

[Basement]

"Well it would be nice if it could be, that would give hope to those like Mr Gregario and his young apprentice, that being said damn but that Mercere can fight, he have a few rather fancy talismans."
Marian agreed with a nod.

Colin nodded, then grinned, "Well, now, the Mercere have perhaps the most dangerous job in the Traditions - that of a courier in war - and they do it mostly without innate magic of their own. Why are you surprised he's quite capable of defending himself?"

Kallan looked up at you looking scared.
"And yet it is what you are helping with being done to me, which is fine I guess I am an adult Nephandus but also Kira who is just an apprentice...just a child, she do not deserve to go through that!"
He muttered sadly.

He nodded, "I know it sounds hypocritical... I suppose it really is to some extent. But I'm compelled to by law - and there remains yet one other possibility for Kira yet, if she can find the strength and time to undo what the Caul did. It's possible, it has been done in the past, but the exact method... is a little bit unclear just yet, beyond some quite demanding Seekings. I had it confirmed by an ancient Handler that it is possible, too, that Falling is not a one-way trip."

"Yeah for the Traditions have never had one faction drive it down one direction or another at the cost of those who do not want to walk that path, perhaps you should sweep before your own door before judging others."
The Nephandus replied tartly.

He smiled wryly, "I'm an Orphan, myself, so I have no blame, as such, for what any one Tradition has done, but yes, as you should know quite intimately, your House and Order have some... dirty laundry, too. And probably most of the others, too, to be fair."

"The cycle is corrupted and need to go, it bring with it only pain and suffering it must be broken down and be gone."
Kallan said simply.

He arched an eyebrow, "And who corrupted the Cycle? I don't believe that anything can be so broken as to be completely irreparable. Oh, it might take several Mage lifetimes and incarnations to do so, but it can be done."

"Yes...watching the boy get sicker and sicker and die was the worst death of the all, and the horrible irony is that if he had been born a few decades later there would be a cure, well not a cure but at least a treatment."
Kallan said bitterly.

He nodded, giving Kallan a gentle, quiet squeeze on the shoulder in commiseration.

"That everything have the potential to be but nothing actually do is beautiful, though the whole concept of beauty as well would not exist, and the whole point is not not know we are alive, to not be alive, to not in fact exist, one do not need pain or joy to know one exist when one do not exist, when nothing exist."
The Nephandus said and he shook his head.
"You fail Nephandi 101 here Traditionalist."

He smiled thinly, "Perhaps I do, and I suppose the Traditions as a whole would be upset if I didn't, but... what, in truth, is the point? If you were to achieve nonexistence, what would you get out of it, in practical and esoteric terms? I mean, as I understand it, the Buddhist and Hindu concepts of Nirvana, of breaking free from the cycles of reincarnation, involving letting go of everything, and becoming one with, well, everything. A way of making the whole better and greater than it was. Qlippothic Descension, comparably, is giving in to all the misery and giving existence an ephemeral middle finger as you rob yourself of peace and happiness..."

"No it is like when a child stand on your porch with a hammer saying that your window was an eyesore but they have now broken it for you."
Kallan replied simply.
"Yes we spread corruption as a way to make the world decay and be gone faster."

He nodded, "And there's the problem, I rather liked that window, and now I have to fix it so I don't get rain in on my floor... And here's a thing, I know of a man who managed to erase himself, to become nonexistent; the Handler prior to the one I've had tea with... and we know he had done this, because of the hole he left. Oh, he'd been forgotten by everyone, absolutely, but there were little things he'd left behind, just enough to make out a faint outline of who he'd been, what he'd accomplished... that sort of little scraps seem rather inevitable when you try to drag Creation into Nothingness, and those scraps, well... that's the sort of things that lurk in the Qlippothic side of things..."

"You work together, riding along thinking that you can still get your way to spark a new world - but that is not how they operate. Do you really think that they would allow that? More likely over time they apply pressure as a fallen avatar is incarnated again as a widderslainte..."

"It is true tha the Black Spiral take it's toll and that eventually as you walk it you will become more and more corrupted and with that corruption come cruelty and most end up wanting that along with nothingness, but it is not a requirement to be cruel to be a Nephandus, though eventually most get there."
Kallan said with a sigh.
"The same most eventually come to desire complete non existence and not the creation of a new world once this one is gone, but not all of us think that, I still want a new, perfect word, but there is no chance this corrupted hellhole will become that."

He nodded thoughtfully, "Ever wonder why it's called the Black Spiral? Because every step of the way leads down the same route of corruption, of unnatural decisions promoting Jhor, and through no longer caring about suffering to reveling in it... but the spiral can be broken. You can step off it, as can Kira, and come back to the Light. It's probably going to require help, but... it can be done. Sometimes, just a little boost in the right direction is all it takes to get started..."

"I assume you were once a hermetic magus - and you had apprentices then. Perhaps some of those you have named, even reincarnated. If you work with the Nephandi, especially the ones that we are discussing, your apprentices who fought for what they loved and believed to be worthy will not only be dead but unwritten, their sacrifices nothing. Their Names will be not, erased and all that they did not. Their avatars which would remember them, and who likely remember you also when you were with them, also unmade to nothing. There will not be a new world born. As they unmake it they will cause untold suffering. You have a choice right now and I can think of few better people to tell than him," he said, nodding to Colin.

This gave the prisoner pause and he looked up at you looking shocked.
"They...would be unmade to...my apprentices..."
He whispered.
"Most of them would be reborn by now most likely, they could be alive right now in the Traditions for all I know I...I...never thought about that...that they would have never existed as well I..."
Kallan looked at you for a long while then he glanced at Colin and shook his head.
"But it must mean something. I can not betray the Nephandi now, not with what the Traditions plan to do to my Avatar...to Kira's Avatar, that can not be for nothing that would be to much to bare..."
He whispered. and looked away.
"Just to much to bare."
The prisoner clearly fought to hold back tears and he stared into the wall.
"But yes I named them...as apprentices, four of them went through their Gauntlets and by that earned the right to name themselves as Magi, but my little boy...he bore the name I gave him as an apprentice when he died..."

"Everything, everyone, and yes their avatars as well, perhaps reincarnated as new magii. You can choose otherwise, even now, for if you do not it /would/ be for nothing. All of it for nothing is what they want, quite literally. Forgive me but I did not get your Name, but I did hear theirs; please consider them," he said. He gestured with a hand towards Colin, then turned to leave. The man would either decide to tell them something more or keep his silence but he felt he should leave so he would have a moment to make that choice.

He nodded, "Ah, of course, Amicus, I should introduce our captive; Kallan, formerly of House Tytalus. I've already warned him that our lady guest is likely to be quite cross with him."
He pondered, "I've been working on a spell for the past two months, but I haven't been able to test it, owing to... certain particularities. A ritual to track the reincarnations of certain individuals close to a person in a previous life. I've found that Avatars have a tendency to retain connections from one incarnation to the other, whether in pairs or in larger groups... With your help, and that of Kira, I might be able to... track down your apprentices, to see if they've reincarnated. Maybe. I'm not sure if I can pull it off alone, but I'm willing to try... The connections should still be there, even if faint and diffuse; I believe that it can be done."
He paused, "Amicus, would you be willing to help me with that?"

[Nicole Bouchard]

[Chantry Second Floor]

Anja's Post:

'Don't know. But I'm doing the rounds.'

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