Re: Forum Update Working Thread

[Nicole Bouchard]

Thing is, the book never says a thing about flying in. Neither the Gates or the Ways. And as the book doesn't make a huge deal about the Ways, we can assume it's not actually that long [if it was, they'd suggest to the ST making it 'part of the adventure']. And if craft had to use the Ways and it's somewhat difficult to traverse, surely there would be a semi-regular convoy/caravan system to reduce risk. So I still hold that catching the craft in the Preumbra going to/from either Gate/Ways is more a risk than the thing itself.

But this is one of those gaps the ST shall fill.

Well, I shall argue that Colin's Umbrial Flight is a more a 'flavour' thing too. I seriously doubt it's ever going to feature heavily in this campaign; I basically see the shuttle as a plot device to allow us to get out of Boston easier for stories [note, not a complaint!]. If we were playing an EtherTrek game, now that's a different story. But we're not, which means the three rolls you do need to do could simply be done with Pilot+Cosmology. The rest can simply be 'informed ability'; Colin can fly Umbrial ships, great. Pilot's already a Secondary so there's no real competition here.

Plus, so Umbrial flight is quite different? So was when that pilot was learning to fly the blimp. Or learning to fly in the dark. Or converting from a helicopter to a fixed-wing. Plus... perhaps Umbrial flight is more like piloting a ship, and thus should come under 'Sailing' [the blimp-flyer said it was a bit boat-like]?


Another issue; sheet bloat. I'm already on 43 Abilities [from a standard 33]. I'm loathe to take any more unless it really is worth it, which means chances of Nick ever getting Umbrial Pilot 1 is almost nil [while her getting a 'wider' Pilot 1 is much higher]. Which would actually benefit Colin, as Nick's one of the very few at the Chantry who might even have the inclination of being his 'co-pilot of last resort'.

You've still not convinced me, here...

[Warpmind]

The book might have skipped over that, on the assumption most groups won't be doing the flying themselves, but rather rely on public transport, if they cross over at all.

As for where Colin has ability points alotted, why is this even an issue in the first place? Yes, rolling them is not going to happen often, but it not all skills need to be rolled every time they come up in the first place. "You have four dots in Academics? Yeah, you know this high-school level stuff better than most high school teachers..."

Also, you never roll Ability+Ability. Pilot+Cosmology isn't a roll in the first place.

And yes, Umbrial flight is very different - maneuvering a zeppelin, or even a hot-air balloon, is still easier from a helicopter or jet plane background, because gravity and wind don't fundamentally change properties. Far as I can understand it, the Umbra has *different* physical properties and vectors to consider, "East and West" is a less important directional axis than "Summer and Winter" or "Blue and Orange", for example. I don't see the sheet bloat problem so much here - Colin's sheet is entirely in textual form on the forum, and just entirely removing abilities he doesn't have/need investments into is easy. Optimizing your character is a lot less important in WoD than in, say, D&D or Shadowrun, you know...

[Nicole Bouchard]

The book might have skipped over that, on the assumption most groups won't be doing the flying themselves, but rather rely on public transport, if they cross over at all.

Well, Horizon was a 2E book [so I think]; it was only 3E when the Etherites were properly fleshed-out as a Tradition. Plus, WoD books were never 100% coherent, mainly due to the fact I don't think they ever had a stable editorship [who'd keep things in line].

Also, you never roll Ability+Ability. Pilot+Cosmology isn't a roll in the first place.

Okay, when I said 'Pilot+Cosmology' I mean that you'd do a 'Pilot+Attribute' for the flying of the thing and the 'Cosmology+Attribute' for navigation, hazard perceptions etc. I'm not such a newbie to think you could do a Ability-Ability roll. I didn't explain this because I thought it would be kinda obvious.

As for where Colin has ability points alotted, why is this even an issue in the first place? Yes, rolling them is not going to happen often, but it not all skills need to be rolled every time they come up in the first place. "You have four dots in Academics? Yeah, you know this high-school level stuff better than most high school teachers..."

I had hoped you'd accept this as a kind of quid pro quo for developing 'a general Secondary rule' - I would accept the loss of Larceny and Scrounge for your loss of Umbrial Pilot under the argument that they all had 'too much overlap' with other Abilities which could do the job on the small occasions they were needed, as well as attempting to limit sheet bloat. After all, you said yourself said;

...the "Umbral Pilot" skill is, essentially, the same as the "Pilot" skill, except it applies to the drastically different cosmology and physics of the Umbra...

But I see it's not to be.

Suggestion withdrawn.

Plus, don't expect Nick to be Colin's co-pilot any time soon. Can't afford it.

And yes, Umbrial flight is very different - maneuvering a zeppelin, or even a hot-air balloon, is still easier from a helicopter or jet plane background, because gravity and wind don't fundamentally change properties. Far as I can understand it, the Umbra has *different* physical properties and vectors to consider, "East and West" is a less important directional axis than "Summer and Winter" or "Blue and Orange", for example. I don't see the sheet bloat problem so much here - Colin's sheet is entirely in textual form on the forum, and just entirely removing abilities he doesn't have/need investments into is easy. Optimizing your character is a lot less important in WoD than in, say, D&D or Shadowrun, you know...

Therefore, I shall say that if Colin's Umbral Pilot is special and with no overlap, I shall say similar with Larceny and Scrounge. Larceny, after all is a separate Ability in VtM and WtA, and both of them also possess Streetwise. Larceny is the world of illegality, while Streetwise is merely the world of the streets. There is a bit of overlap, yes; but there's quite a difference; Streetwise allows the character to blend into a crowd, to get subcultures and so on while Larceny is the murky world of the black economy, grifts and frauds. As a woman who'd basically lived 'off radar' for a decade, Nick's a girl familiar with 'doing what needs to be done' to make a living [she's already shown familiarity with lockpicking, safe-cracking, auto insurance scams and does have a trick coin which has no backstory...]

Scrounge is basically, the art/skill of being able to track down almost anything, or to get normal-ish items much cheaper than normally. It's got a bit of overlap with Streetwise / Larceny, but also Area Lore, Investigation and the VtM Ability Finance. A skill Nick got from her Sleeper life and honed further by her years in Detroit; after all, technomancers need kit/parts to create, and often said items are rare, expensive, illegal or monitored, which means Nick would have 'value' to the Lab more than simply a guard. It also means coupled with her Military Science, should make her a decent quartermaster for the Chantry.

So both are 'standalone' Abilties, which cannot be attempted without possessing said Ability.

[Warpmind]

Okay, when I said 'Pilot+Cosmology' I mean that you'd do a 'Pilot+Attribute' for the flying of the thing and the 'Cosmology+Attribute' for navigation, hazard perceptions etc. I'm not such a newbie to think you could do a Ability-Ability roll. I didn't explain this because I thought it would be kinda obvious.

I know, just tweaking you a little.

So both are 'standalone' Abilties, which cannot be attempted without possessing said Ability.

Well, now, if I recall correctly, you can attempt anything you're not trained in - but you might suffer a -2 dice penalty, and if your relevant attribute is below three, your chances are down to a luck die, which succeeds on, what, a 10? But essentially, yeah, if you don't know what you're doing, you're not going to have a good time, most likely.

[Nicole Bouchard]

Well... 4th [if I recall right] a talentless Talent has no penalty, a skillless Skill is +1 difficulty and a knowledgeless Knowledge is a flat-out no.

But the point I'm concerned about is not that, but the idea that [for example] some sod can come along, roll Streetwise+Attribute and face the same difficulties / success criteria than Nick actually using Larceny. I hold that to be inherently unfair. Otherwise... what's the point? For flavour?

Which was why I suggested as the Secondary house rule; they're only allowed when they can't be folded into any of the Primary Abilities. Which means basically, either you've got it or you're rolling as the top sentence [it's also cleaner than your suggestion, which basically requires calculations and double-rolling].

[Warpmind]

Nick might enjoy a lower threshold, though - a Dex+Streetwise roll to break in through the front door of a house on a city street might require 5 successes, while the Dex+Larceny roll for the same might only require 3.

As a very rough example-

[Nicole Bouchard]

I'm more inclined to fiddle with the difficulty ratings, myself. But as long as there's a clear advantage to having it vs not having it. However, this then arcs back to Nick flying in the Umbra 'making do' with Pilot + Cosmology intead of Umbrial Pilot...

Other issue; having to choose either/or. Mainly thinking Knowledges here. The idea you have to choose 'Occult' or 'Vampire Lore' when you're trying to remember what a Gangrel is.

[Warpmind]

Other issue; having to choose either/or. Mainly thinking Knowledges here. The idea you have to choose 'Occult' or 'Vampire Lore' when you're trying to remember what a Gangrel is.

Eh, Occult would probably let you know what a Gangrel is. Vampire Lore at the same rating might also right away let you know what Gangrels' strengths and weaknesses are. It's deeper knowledge in a narrower field.

Sort of like how knowing Science 2 lets you know in broad terms how a nuclear reactor works, but Nuclear Physics 2 lets you build one safely.

[Nicole Bouchard]

Eh, Occult would probably let you know what a Gangrel is. Vampire Lore at the same rating might also right away let you know what Gangrels' strengths and weaknesses are. It's deeper knowledge in a narrower field.

True. However, the issue is that Knowledges are basically 'stuff you know' and there's no Chinese wall in a person's head - if you possessed both Occult and Vamp Lore, you'd check both. So with Knowledges, I'd argue a PC *should* be allowed to instantly roll as many Knowledges as is deemed applicable [so stopping the 'which roll?' contrived dilemma].

Sort of like how knowing Science 2 lets you know in broad terms how a nuclear reactor works, but Nuclear Physics 2 lets you build one safely.

I'd argue that *building* the reactor is in fact Technology, not Science. You don't ask someone with a Nuclear Physics PhD to build a reactor, you ask someone with a Nuclear Engineering MEng. [A joke in Big Bang Theory, as Wolowitz is an engineer, and thus can't call himself 'doctor'. Same with surgeons.] It's why I keep on pressing the 'remaking the wheel' point about Etherites, 'cos Nick is a combat engineer and so relies on pre-existing blueprints etc for her creations rather than designing stuff herself [though she does tinker and mod]. She made an EMP device IC, but doesn't actually understand well the scientific laws which made it so...

Anyway, you didn't answer...

However, this then arcs back to Nick flying in the Umbra 'making do' with Pilot + Cosmology intead of Umbrial Pilot...

[Nicole Bouchard]

The original question regarding Secondaries has still not been dealt with. There is two options; Warps' -

By and large, the book does specify under the different secondaries which ones can lower difficulties for other rolls (they're on page 289 onward in M20), the others can be assumed to default to being their own rolls entirely, with Attribute depending on what you're doing. Demolitions is for making or disarming explosives, especially home-made ones, Hypertech does for Weird Science what Technology does for mundane tech, in terms of analysis and application of unfamiliar machinery.

And mine;

- A Secondary is only accepted when there is no realistic Primary to fit it.

- There must be a definite bonus for possessing it vs not. Example; A pilot with Pilot rolls Pilot+Intelligence [difficulty 6] to fly the Cessna, while a person without it has to do an extended roll of Science/Technology+Intelligence [difficulty 8] to accumulate enough successes to work out the basics. Or flat-out simply say it can't be done, period.

Similar could be said for Occult/Lores. A question about vampires might be Occult Diff 8/9, but Vamp Lore Diff 6 - simply representing the narrower, but deeper area of study. It's like Occult is the ownership of a basic encyclopaedia, while Lore is the definitive module textbook.

Little context judging. No re-rulings. Minimum of rolling. Everyone knows how it works. The end.

You can read the discussion afterwards but the argument's salient points is that Warp's has the backing of the canon rules [for what it's worth] but mine has the appeal of being much simpler to run; basically put - if a PC has a Secondary, it's because they don't fit in any Primary and thus, no overlap. Warp's option also has the minus by the fact the rule won't work on all the Secondaries.

[Nicole Bouchard]

RE: Chantries.

Doing a list of chantries and so on is a good idea. Though first things first; we actually need to fix their positions. I've done a little look about, and think I've found the *perfect* position for Steelhaven; Chester Gardens, Allston. Nothing needs to change at all, just that now it actually has a location. Also fits all the descriptions etc so far; the buildings around it even kinda look like SH. Chantry to the outside just looks like yet another oldish midrise apartment building which might be linked to one of the nearby colleges...

Thoughts?

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

Sure that works.

[Nicole Bouchard]

It also means we can quickly look for stuff 'nearby' for fluff in RP etc...

Okay, done SH as an example format (which others will follow);

Steelhaven Hall
Location: Allston, Boston, Massachusetts.
Alias: Chester Gardens Condos (Apartment Block)
Faction: Traditions (Mixed, Hermetic Dominant)
Size: Medium
Type: Training / Defence
Notes: Formerly part of Lux Itineris.

Anything else you think needs to be added (both details and the format).

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

That looks good. Steelhaven is a Summer Chantry.

[Nicole Bouchard]

Personally, I'd describe it more 'Late Spring', but that's neither here or there, really...

Next bit is the placing of Lux Itineris. I know it was somewhere in Cambridge, but do you have any thoughts of where exactly? Or in what building, for that matter?

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

Late Sprig is nto to bad of an assumptio, tough the number of members and power withi the Tribunal make it a young summer Chantry.

Lux Iternis is probably in one of the buildings with a library, hidden in a pocket real accessed by a painting.

[Warpmind]

It's in a uni building, isn't it?

[Nicole Bouchard]

- Well, I put it into Spring because a) much of SH is still 'young' and b) she's still not approaching 'capacity' yet. But it's the complaint raised in the Chantries book itself; that to designate the season makes the assumption you know where the 'peak' is - for example, I could see an 'Autumn' Chantry skipping 'Winter' entirely by a combination of active deft work from the leadership, some injection of new blood (Apprentices?) and a bit of luck. Another Autumn might enjoy an 'Indian Summer' and so on...

Perhaps it's best to simply use the seasons thing to designate the mentality of the Chantry, rather than it's condition? In this case, I'd say SH is 'Spring' because she's still got the suppleness and adventurousness of youth, but not the political heft / reputation / status to throw about. Yet.

- 'Uni building with a library'. Very helpful, when you have five seperate colleges within Cambridge itself and a ton of auxillery buildings nearby. Though we'd need to be careful about placement; I think we can assume there's a Union outpost nearby, at MIT (though there may not be a Node).

Do you wish me to find a possible RL place for Lux to be situated, Great One?

EDIT: Noticed you never did the write-up for this thread, Great One: https://chantrysteelhaven.forumotion.com/t262p725-terror-in-seattle-shopping-weapons-and-cute-little-critters-ic-thread-54#44944

Perhaps it's an idea to do it before the thread becomes so old you've forgotten what it contains?

[Nicole Bouchard]

As mentioned in the IC thread...

Premise; the only real thing which determines a gun's ability is the calibre of ammunition it uses. Therefore, if we simply categorise all weapons by ammo alone, we can produce a short table which shall cover nearly all eventualities...

	Damage	Range
Handgun, Light	3	10
.22 Short, 9mm Short, .32 S&W Short.
Handgun, Medium	4	20
.38 S&W, 9mm Para, 9mm Makarov.
Handgun, Heavy	5	30
.375 Magnum, .44 Magnum, .45 ACP.
Shotgun, Light	6	20
.410 bore, 28 Ga.
Shotgun, Heavy	8	25
10 Ga, 12 Ga.
Rifle, 'Cadet'	4	50
.22LR, .310 Cadet.
Rifle, Light	6	100
.223 Remington, 5.56 NATO, 5.45 Soviet.
Rifle, Medium	7	150
.243 Winchester, 7.62 Soviet, 7.62 NATO.
Rifle, Heavy	8	200
.30-06 Springfield, 7.62 Russian, 7.92 Mauser.
Rifle, 'Elephant'	10	50
.460 Weatherby, 500 Nitro.
Machine Gun	12	500
.50 Browning, 12.7 Soviet.

For an 'at a glance' list of what weapon uses what...

Pistols; normally 'Handgun, Medium', occasionally 'Handgun, Heavy'. Backup pieces 'Handgun, Light', while occasional target piece 'Rifle, Cadet'.

Revolvers; normally 'Handgun, Medium', sometimes 'Handgun, Heavy', very rarely 'Shotgun, Light'. Rare backup pieces 'Handgun, Light'.

Submachine Guns; normally 'Handgun, Medium', occasionally 'Handgun, Heavy'.

Shotguns; usually 'Shotgun, Heavy', sometimes 'Shotgun, Light' and very rarely, 'Rifle, Elephant'.

Assault Rifles; Older models (before 1975) 'Rifle, Medium', newer models (after 1975) 'Rifle, Light'. Occasionally 'Rifle, Cadet'.

Rifles; Pre-WW2 military models 'Rifle, Heavy', hunting models either 'Rifle, Medium' or 'Rifle, Light'. Youth/training models 'Rifle, Cadet'.

Machine Guns; pre-WW2 models 'Rifle, Heavy', older models 'Rifle, Medium', modern models 'Rifle, Light'. Heavy models 'Machine Gun'.

[Nicole Bouchard]

Oh, and you never did the write-up for the IC #54 thread - https://chantrysteelhaven.forumotion.com/t262p725-terror-in-seattle-shopping-weapons-and-cute-little-critters-ic-thread-54#44944

[Warpmind]

Took the liberty of cleaning up my map a little, and set up a link for viewing it. Might add further info on the same page - copying in the cast list etc. in a decently indexed file stored off the forum, readable in a more accessible format than trying to find the right post in the NPCs thread... if I get around to it.

Chantry Steelhaven Hall

For now, it's just the building map, as an easily viewed reference.

Oh, yeah, best viewed in Chrome.

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

Nice thank you.

[Nicole Bouchard]

(OOC: I can do that...how do I make sticky posts?)

Go to 'Post New Topic' in correct sub-forum, make first post, but before you hit 'send' hunt out under the box (under 'Options') and check 'Post Topic as sticky' before hitting send (use your brower's search word function if you can't see said box right away).

Now, you can cut/paste my table as-is but you must turn off BBCode before doing so, otherwise the formatting shall be lost and it becomes unreadable. This can be done by pressing the 'switch editor mode' button on the far right of the buttons on the toolbar above and then doing the pasting.

Alternative method; go to my post with the table, click 'edit' (top right of my post) and then copy all the table with the BBCode.

[Nicole Bouchard]

With the layout map, I note the following missing;

4th Floor
- Training/Sparring Room
- Gym (formally guest room)

1st Floor
-  Meeting Room

Basement
- Chemistry Lab
- Hobby/Rec Room

However, there's no need to re-do this because it wouldn't be hard for me to quickly translate your sketch to a 2D line layout with a floorplanner program with said additions.

Now, where is that external photo of the chantry gone?

[Warpmind]

I mean, someone better than me with Photoshop could probably take the transparent .png and clean it up proper, add in the extra rooms, and I could just upload it back to the picture server I use and update the link.

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