Re: Forum Update Working Thread

[Warpmind]

Honestly, I could see the Etherites and the Hermetics agree on that gentlemanly style. And it has seen quite the renaissance in the past twenty years. Not sure about the other Traditions, and I'm not even sure the Akashics would protest it, as it is not a mystical martial art like Do is.

Also, I suppose it could fit Etherites quite well in their everyone-doing-their-own-thing gimmick, as even the original Bartitsu was recombining multiple styles, something very much in line with a lot of Etherite thinking - "If I use these principles instead of those, it suits me better."

Probably a lot less formal than outright Bartitsu schools, but they'd certainly have some very nice books on the subject in distribution, leather-bound and possibly even gilded to show off to prospective students. Hell, some of those books could even be on the sleeper market without any issue.

[Nicole Bouchard]

I don't see the Hermetics going in much for Bartitsu - I suspect most of their combat training would be geared towards certamen, swordplay and well, magick. The main exception being House Tytalus; I think they'd really see the utility. But I suspect here Tytalus would have developed their own style(s) centuries before from now-dead European traditions, like the Company of Masters.

I think the Akashics traditionally would have hated an Etherite Bartitsu. Materialistic, European technomancers taking their martial arts, cutting out the 'mystical junk' [which they use as a pre-Do course], slapping together the remains like they're nothing more than bricks, then trying to pass it off as their own creation at the peak of white arrogance? If this isn't 'cultural appropriation', I don't know what is. These days, however I suspect they're a lot more resigned to that, plus the original 'crime' is almost forgotten.

The main special argument [that is, not the usual 'shared schools, the teacher effect etc' said on the other thread] for the Etherites refining/developing Bartitsu is ironically similar reasons for Do - that being Awakened offers new options in close-quarters combat and would have evolved to take advantage of it.

But this relies on what Great One has to say about it in the first place...

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

I am not familliar with Bartitsu at all. I doubt any martial arts are part of the main training for Hermetics but some like House Flambeau and House Tytalus will learn to fight with guns, knives, swords whatever is rpactical to such fighting styles could happen then if the Mentor is a fan of it.

[Nicole Bouchard]

Erm... did you read the other two posts after the one I linked to? Plus, I did do a link for Bartitsu, but here it is again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartitsu

Few folks are familiar with Bartitsu; it's heyday was 1900-1905 and had completely vanished by 1914. It's not actually a 'martial art', more a form of self-defence made of a hybrid of several martial arts - it's basically a forerunner of later systems like Krav Maga.

I also need to know about the Secondaries issue - basically, we need to work out which Secondaries are 'stand-alone' ones [aka you need this to roll] or a 'culmative' one [you roll this to reduce difficulty in your main roll]. We've been having a variant of this discussion for the best part of six months now, and I simply wish to sort this out...

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

I asked you for a summary and how this is relevant for out current game. What exactly are you asking about here. No I have not read this entire martial arts discussion at times I gave to prioritize how I spend ny time but summarize a concrete question and I will answer you.

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

Did we not already work out how secobdaries work? They are skills you are them to an attribute and roll that many dice. Er found a special solution for that one secondary you wanted the rest work like all other skills.

[Nicole Bouchard]

I asked you for a summary and how this is relevant for out current game. What exactly are you asking about here. No I have not read this entire martial arts discussion at times I gave to prioritize how I spend ny time but summarize a concrete question and I will answer you.

Q1: Bartitsu. Thinking this could have been adopted by the Etherites as a self-defence system and developed through the 20th C, and now is taught as a self-defence system by some factions.

I am thinking that Nick may know this, and as part of her development might get further training in it.

Q2: Secondaries. No, not fully. Warp dug out the secondary 'reduce difficulty' rule but that really can't be applied to *all* Secondaries. Unless you'd like to tell me what Primary Ability 'Flight' uses.

I must get this info because I've been trying to get a straight answer about it so I can actually do my XP spending in a manner which actually *improves* the character.

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

Flight use Dex. Just tell me the secobdaries you are wondering about I am not going to go through hundreds of books and list every secondary and whatever or not we can House rule it.

I do not think the Etherites have adopted a standard Martial Art no, but an induvidual character can learn it in their own time.

[Nicole Bouchard]

Flight use Dex. Just tell me the secobdaries you are wondering about I am not going to go through hundreds of books and list every secondary and whatever or not we can House rule it.

I said Ability, not Attribute.

I point you back to this bit of the thread where after much discussion I say;

So... working off that, a 'general Secondary rule' could be; rolling the Secondary+Attribute first can lower the difficulty of the Primary+Attribute roll afterwards? [Unless it has no Primary equivalent, like Colin's Flight which means it works like normal].

That makes logical sense, would not be overly complicated to do and would also work with Lores/Occult.

To which you then reply;

That works for me.

This means we now need to nail down which Secondaries that PCs follow the 'reduce difficulty' rule and which Secondaries are 'standalone' and so work like a normal Ability. [We already know how the Lores work; they're all 'reduce difficulty']

The ones Nick has is;

Scrounging
Demolitions
Larceny
Hypertech
Military Science

Colin has;

Pilot
Umbrial Pilot

Serge has;

High Ritual

I do not think the Etherites have adopted a standard Martial Art no, but an induvidual character can learn it in their own time.

Why not? Some factions - like the Ethernauts and perhaps the Shadow Ministry - would have a long need for such skills. Who says that there hasn't been a situation where there's been a long line of martial Etherites teaching students over the 20th century, stretching back all the way to 1900 and the Sleeper version? You were perfectly happy to have Nick learn Krav Maga at the Academy, so a little retcon [think I mentioned it once IC] wouldn't change anything.

Plus, being Awakened offers more moves than mere Sleeper self-defence/martial art. For example, unarmed combat with cybernetics? Or in low gravity? Or the Umbra?

And before you say 'there is no standardisation!' again, this is a basic situation of student <-> master relationships over decades, no formal body saying 'this is our style and no other!' Just a couple of long-lived training 'Masters' in teaching positions [for example, the unarmed combat teacher at the Ethernaut Academy] can end up propagating the style across the Tradition simply because their fingerprints are on generations of students.


EDIT: I ask these two questions because I have worked out what Science Nick can make a name for herself in - 'Tradition Defence'. It's mentioned in canon that it has a Chair [Etherite Revised, p38] so it's reasonable to assume it's a recognised legitimate field of study within the Society. That means it's a dead cert in the 2E era there will be a fair few martial Etherites superior to her in rank, which means a lot of her early work will be learning such skills from them and being able to successfully apply them.

Naturally, Nick doesn't have to end up making her own hybrid Awakened self-defence system if one already existed, and the Secondarys issue matters in the respect for things like Military Science.

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

I can allow for the use of a secondary skill roll to lower the diff of a general roll where applicable so you can use these there, meaning if what you are trying to do clearly fall into the domain of the secondary skill you can roll and see if you get a lovered difficulty.

As for Martial Arts I believe it is pretty likely either of the two Etherite books would have mentioned it if some sort of Martial Art was common among Etherites. They are not a military force, if you want such a Martial Art for your character go ahead but it will nto be a standard thing Etherites do.

[Nicole Bouchard]

I can allow for the use of a secondary skill roll to lower the diff of a general roll where applicable so you can use these there, meaning if what you are trying to do clearly fall into the domain of the secondary skill you can roll and see if you get a lovered difficulty.

#1: You've changed your mind from July then?

#2: What does Colin's Pilot's 'general roll' then?

As for Martial Arts I believe it is pretty likely either of the two Etherite books would have mentioned it if some sort of Martial Art was common among Etherites. They are not a military force, if you want such a Martial Art for your character go ahead but it will nto be a standard thing Etherites do.

#1: It's not a martial art. It's a self-defence technique. Subtle but important difference.

#2: There is no 'standard thing Etherites do' for if nothing else they are one Tradition which covers *all* the Union Conventions to start off with, and let's not have the same argument again regarding whether factions/fields of the Etherites do have some 'commonality'. What I am saying that within the group of martial Etherites [some] knowledge of Bartitsu is somewhat common.

#3: The Etherites *do* have a military force of sorts; the 'Sky Cavalry' attached to the Fleet [also, the Etherite police as seen in Horizon etc]. The idea that they refined their own combat system over a century plus and teach it to their recruits is not a stupid assumption. After all, this is how Krav Maga started out in RL.

#4: No, it's not mentioned in either of the Etherite books. But we both know if we had a MtA game on only what the books say we'd not get every far [for example, I do not remember the mention of SH in any book]. The WoD canon has huge, gaping holes in it everywhere which is left for the ST to fill in as/when needed and often, this requires extrapolation of ideas. In this case, working off the single line that the Sky Cavalry 'trains the physically hardiest Scientists alive' [or words to that effect]. It does not actually really say what this training is, so is left up to the imagination.

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

I just don't want to dela with this endless discussion so if what it takes is saying sure let us let someone roll secondaries not just as a one of thing but as a general rule then let us jsut do that and be done with this.

Not all secondaries will have relevant primary abilities just your head and logic to figure out who do piloting Umbra Ship do nothave a relevant primary ability.

I am goign home tomorrow to spend a few weeks with my mother I will nto ahve the time for endless OOC debates then. Like I said if you want Nicole to have this Martial Art she can learn it but I stand by my decicion it is not a general Sons of Ether thing.

[Nicole Bouchard]

Not all secondaries will have relevant primary abilities just your head and logic to figure out who do piloting Umbra Ship do nothave a relevant primary ability.

No. I 'used my head and logic' and deliberately chose Secondaries which I felt didn't have relevant primary ability but then you said otherwise.

Like I said if you want Nicole to have this Martial Art she can learn it but I stand by my decicion it is not a general Sons of Ether thing.

What, not even a faction within the Tradition is not allowed to have it?

Plus; does the Tradition have anything 'in general' apart from it's name?


In general terms, you're making it very difficult for me to chart any form of advancement because you're either declining to decide anything and/or changing your mind. It's why we keep on having the 'endless OOC debates' about the same topic(s). When we [usually Warp and I] try to 'square circles' into something which works [for you and me], the normal response is... nothing - you decline to make a call on the idea [either way].

I can't really decide XP spends because I don't know how Sec. Abilities actually function. I can't work out how Nick could get promoted because nothing is defined and makes precious little sense in a common-sense manner. I am trying to find a hole for the Nick-sized peg in the Tradition but you're basically telling me one does not exist in any form. If this is true - why did you allow me to create Nick in the first place?

[Warpmind]

Okay, to chip in here on the secondaries - far as I am concerned, the "Umbral Pilot" skill is, essentially, the same as the "Pilot" skill, except it applies to the drastically different cosmology and physics of the Umbra; I'd assume Dexterity as the normally associated Attribute for maneuvers, but Intelligence could be used for charting courses. Both apply to operating a flying (or as close to as is viable in the Umbra) vehicle, as opposed to a ground or sea vehicle. It's a complex pair of skills with fairly self-evident uses, could be extended to recognizing various aircraft and such.

As for other secondaries, it's honestly a bit contextual, nevermind which Attribute is appropriate.

By and large, the book does specify under the different secondaries which ones can lower difficulties for other rolls (they're on page 289 onward in M20), the others can be assumed to default to being their own rolls entirely, with Attribute depending on what you're doing. Demolitions is for making or disarming explosives, especially home-made ones, Hypertech does for Weird Science what Technology does for mundane tech, in terms of analysis and application of unfamiliar machinery.

The odd ones out that Nick has, Larceny, Military Science, and Scrounging (not in the books), alright, let me make the proposals there...

Military Science is the easy one: treat it as Lore (Military Tech). It's effectively precisely the same concept, you know a *lot* of stuff about military hardware that you really shouldn't have information on... any military. Nick's probably got some classified schematics for in-service tanks or something in her databanks somewhere, too.

Larceny: When acquiring something - an object, access to a location, etc. - doesn't rely on legality or finesse. It's a simple Attribute+Ability roll to hotwire a car, locate and empty the safe in a house in the shortest time possible without tripping the alarms, that sort of thing. An Int+Electronics roll or something might lower the difficulty, for getting around alarms.

Scrounging: Could be a straight up roll to find resources for later - finding a specific good part you need from the junkyard, or wherever, or you could use it to lower the cost and difficulty to build something by "finding" various parts that are "good enough" in the area, essentially MacGyvering that arc welder with a generator, some jumper cables, and an old quarter.

That's just my suggestion, though. But given the nature of the Abilities system, and the Secondary Abilities, I think this is the smoothest arrangement for the ones in question. But I am in a lot of pain, and halfway focused right now, so I might have overlooked something in my cogitation.

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

I do not have allot of time for this post as I will be picked up to be driven home in a quarter of an hour. So I have to be beief here.

What Warp says seam to work well.

Here is the thing the World of Darkness system is a mess, especially when you bring in optional rules like secondary abilities but it is ok as it is a rules light system. I do not really see what your problem here is, just choose abilities for your character and we will work it out. However no I am nto always going to remember every single rulling that I have ever made for every skill or what all books say at all times, we will work that out. No one else need things to be 100 percent down on the paper black and white because WoD is not that kind of game.

I have no problem with Nicole, there should not be any problem with Nicole as a charaker and I am sorry I just do not have the spoons to go though every secondary skill to figure out what other skills it interact with just in case you want to use it I have said just tell me what you want to buy for your character and we will work that out.

I am also sorry that evntually I just can not take the endless discussion anymore and say sure whatever let us just say it apply to everything but then that is not good enough either. Here is the thing some games have lists and databases about how every skill and ability and stat interact with everything else the Storyteller system do not it is a mess so ther eis allot one just have to figure out as one go along.

As for this Martial Arts or whatever it is. I DID NOT SAY and Etherite could not have it I said they are not trained in it as part of general training, how do that hinder your from advancing your character?

Now as for ow Etherites advance in ank they either publish research or acomplish things for their Tradition and win recognition.

Now I really do not understand what the problem is here.

[Nicole Bouchard]

I do not have allot of time for this post as I will be picked up to be driven home in a quarter of an hour. So I have to be beief here.

Nor do I, actually - either right this moment or in general. I'd love to not keep on having this conversation.

Now I really do not understand what the problem is here.

The main issue I have is that taking a Secondary has to have a clear benefit. A PC with a Secondary in X area needs to be more skilled than a PC without it. The idea - for example - that Colin goes to the effort of learning 'Pilot' and then is immediately beaten in skill by Nick who was using 'Drive'? Unless the 'context' of each active Secondary is defined, it's all going to be all up in the air until the point it's used and then it's a 'suck it and see' territory. Even worse, it might be a different ruling each time.

This could be very important if I think [for example] Nick's good enough to make a bomb with her Demolitions, but instead her crap Science skill is used, and she blows herself up and loses a limb. I see a rage-quit situation there. Even a 'bad' system is better than an arbitary system because at very least you know where you stand with it.

My secondary, and relatively minor issue is the fact basically, you don't come to conclusions. I finally think we get somewhere, then a month or three later I get an answer/comment from you which is like the previous conversation never happened and I scream at my computer screen. Or you sort of 'drift out' of the conversation entirely, and the issue is unresolved.

I am also sorry that evntually I just can not take the endless discussion anymore

So am I. Which is why I'm pulling this to a head. I want this issue nailed down once and for all so we can move on from it and I've got to the stage where I don't overly care if I piss everyone off to make sure it happens.

As for other secondaries, it's honestly a bit contextual, nevermind which Attribute is appropriate.

By and large, the book does specify under the different secondaries which ones can lower difficulties for other rolls (they're on page 289 onward in M20), the others can be assumed to default to being their own rolls entirely, with Attribute depending on what you're doing. Demolitions is for making or disarming explosives, especially home-made ones, Hypertech does for Weird Science what Technology does for mundane tech, in terms of analysis and application of unfamiliar machinery.

The problem with that is that it's still too fuzzy and complicated. My proposal is as follows;

- A Secondary is only accepted when there is no realistic Primary to fit it.

- There must be a definite bonus for possessing it vs not. Example; A pilot with Pilot rolls Pilot+Intelligence [difficulty 6] to fly the Cessna, while a person without it has to do an extended roll of Science/Technology+Intelligence [difficulty 8] to accumulate enough successes to work out the basics. Or flat-out simply say it can't be done, period.

Similar could be said for Occult/Lores. A question about vampires might be Occult Diff 8/9, but Vamp Lore Diff 6 - simply representing the narrower, but deeper area of study. It's like Occult is the ownership of a basic encyclopaedia, while Lore is the definitive module textbook.

Little context judging. No re-rulings. Minimum of rolling. Everyone knows how it works. The end.

By and large, the book does specify under the different secondaries which ones can lower difficulties for other rolls (they're on page 289 onward in M20), the others can be assumed to default to being their own rolls entirely, with Attribute depending on what you're doing. Demolitions is for making or disarming explosives, especially home-made ones, Hypertech does for Weird Science what Technology does for mundane tech, in terms of analysis and application of unfamiliar machinery.

The odd ones out that Nick has, Larceny, Military Science, and Scrounging (not in the books), alright, let me make the proposals there...

Military Science is the easy one: treat it as Lore (Military Tech). It's effectively precisely the same concept, you know a *lot* of stuff about military hardware that you really shouldn't have information on... any military. Nick's probably got some classified schematics for in-service tanks or something in her databanks somewhere, too.

Larceny: When acquiring something - an object, access to a location, etc. - doesn't rely on legality or finesse. It's a simple Attribute+Ability roll to hotwire a car, locate and empty the safe in a house in the shortest time possible without tripping the alarms, that sort of thing. An Int+Electronics roll or something might lower the difficulty, for getting around alarms.

Scrounging: Could be a straight up roll to find resources for later - finding a specific good part you need from the junkyard, or wherever, or you could use it to lower the cost and difficulty to build something by "finding" various parts that are "good enough" in the area, essentially MacGyvering that arc welder with a generator, some jumper cables, and an old quarter.

That's just my suggestion, though. But given the nature of the Abilities system, and the Secondary Abilities, I think this is the smoothest arrangement for the ones in question. But I am in a lot of pain, and halfway focused right now, so I might have overlooked something in my cogitation.

As for the particulars, I think I've got a good case [as you say] with Hypertech and Demolitions being in the same grouping as Pilot - you either have it or you're floundering in the deep end with no life-ring. I will argue that Military Science deserves this too, as it's not just about hardware specs but also strategy, tactics, logistics, training and so on - basically, the 'science of war' which is beyond personal combat skill/leadership and doesn't fit on any Ability dot at all.

Larceny is from VtM, which is why I thought of having it again. However for the argument for simplicity's sake I'll accept it's abolition and using Streetwise instead. Scrounge is a bit like Military Science as it's a kind of 'cross-Ability ability' and will be sad losing it, but will accept it if the trade-off is getting a decent general system in which I can then plot future spends etc with confidence.

EDIT 11/11. No, all my secondaries special.

Okay, to chip in here on the secondaries - far as I am concerned, the "Umbral Pilot" skill is, essentially, the same as the "Pilot" skill, except it applies to the drastically different cosmology and physics of the Umbra; I'd assume Dexterity as the normally associated Attribute for maneuvers, but Intelligence could be used for charting courses. Both apply to operating a flying (or as close to as is viable in the Umbra) vehicle, as opposed to a ground or sea vehicle. It's a complex pair of skills with fairly self-evident uses, could be extended to recognizing various aircraft and such.

[Bolding mine]

You've kinda damned yourself, here. Why didn't you take a couple of dots in Cosmology? I mean, the M20 blurb for it literally says;

'...this trait reflects a working knowledge of the puzzling Otherworlds beyond the Earthly plane. With it, you stand a decent chance of finding your way around out there without getting yourself killed...'

which if that's not a good description of Colin's shuttle-flight lessons, I don't know what is.

Proposed solution; abolish Umbrial Flight, convert Colin's two dots into Cosmology instead and use Cos+Int when trying to chart a course when flying in the Umbra.

[Incidently, this also fixes another 'unsolved discussion' from around six months back regarding Pilot/Umbrial Pilot divisions.]

I'll answer the other bit later.

[Nicole Bouchard]

Now, onto the other bit.

Now I really do not understand what the problem is here.

Because;
#1: we keep on having the same conversations
#2: half the time I'm not even sure you're even reading my points
#3: if a decision is made, it can't be regarded as solid

We have a long, somewhat... long and slightly tense discussion about Etherites and Tass [which was not even the first time we'd had it] and by the end we get to what I considered a workable 'general principle' about Etherites;

Well those who have gone to the same schools would have similar Paradigms so there might be a standard there.

All well and good, everyone happy. Everyone on same sheet. I come across Bartitsu, think 'you know that looks like Etherites would like that' and discuss it a little. But then you come in and deny it on the 'everyone re-making the unique wheel' answer which caused the original Tass discussion. Two weeks before.

Thinking that you might have not properly got my point, I try to elaborate my theory/position, citing the effect of a few teachers passing on the same skill over decades to many pupils, canon examples and so on but I get zero response on it. Instead, I get a denial which didn't even fit well with what I was saying.

The reason I said;

I am trying to find a hole for the Nick-sized peg in the Tradition but you're basically telling me one does not exist in any form. If this is true - why did you allow me to create Nick in the first place?

Is because you simply stared through the several points about 'Tradition Defence' being regarded as a legitimate field of study within the Tradition. If it is a legitimate field this means Nick will not a) have to re-invent everything herself because she will have seniors to learn from and b) may be able to get a 'battlefield promotion' and thus avoid the publishing dilemma. If it is not a legitimate field this means a) she will be 'making the wheel' and b) will have to find some way to get that promotion [or be content for being a mere Scientist forever].

What's more, if you do rule it is not a legitimate field it rips into Nick's backstory utterly. After all, why would the Tradition go to the lengths of having a 'Chantry' teaching stuff which is not a field of study? Even more importantly, if the Etherites don't go into military stuff, how/why did they mould Nick into a solder without her active consent? [which is an important psychological aspect of the character].

Couple that with the lack of guidence on Secondaries... you can see the issue I'm facing, here.

[Nicole Bouchard]

((OOC: I don't think Colin should drop Umbral Pilot and get Cosmology instead - essentially because his grasp of Cosmology, as such, is a very narrow wedge of that skill suite, but the Umbral Pilot skill would cover a fair bit of related practical skills not covered by Cosmology...

And? That can be said about all sorts of Abilities. Yes, 'Umbrial Pilot' would be a better fit, but there's overlap with both Cosmology and Pilot. Umbrial Pilot falls into the same category as Nick's 'Scrounge' and 'Larceny' in this respect.

I am arguing all three should be lost to cut the level of 'overlaps' to a minimum.

...related to Umbral craft operation (and to some extent maintenance), but a fair chunk of those features would not apply to terrestrial aircraft operation, either, on account of helicopters being fairly simple to direct; forwards-backwards, left-right, up-down, whereas Umbral ships can move along several other axes including up-down, left-right, forwards-backwards, blue-orange, winter-summer, moral-ethical, cinnamon-sweet, and fuzzy-scaly, to name but a few. Essentially, Colin's understanding of Cosmology is largely limited to direct navigational application, and not so much the more esoteric aspects.))

#1: 'Pilot' covers [amongst others] a Huey, a Spitfire, a 737, a B-29, a Sopworth Camel and a MiG-29. Hell, it might even cover airships, hot air balloons and gliders. Colin has Pilot 4, which I would generally take to mean he actually has a rather wide range of experience/knowledge about craft - 'Higher levels open up a wider range of vehicles at your command' to quote M20's 'Drive'. The very fact Colin managed to get two dots in Umbrial Pilot within six weeks IC suggests there was a lot of overlap in materiel.

#2: The 'special issues' of flying in the Deep Umbra would be covered by Cosmology.

#3: It's quite possible Colin has been given at least a theoretical groundwork of some other realms in his training.

#4: Cosmology would also cover the other bits/pieces he's heard/learned about. You think he's not learned a smigeon about the Underworld, for example?

#5: Are you saying Colin's Umbra knowledge has zero application outside of flying in it?

(OOC 2: I agree that Umbral Pilot can not be filled by Cosmology as it is nto just knowledge of the Umbra but also knowledge of how to operate a Umbra ship.)

Umbrial ship not that different if Colin picked it up so quick. Anyway, how different can most be? If you know how to fly a plane, you're already over the hurdle of 'thinking in four directions' and the canon makes it kinda clear most Near Umbra realms [of which will be the vast majority of Colin's flying-time] function rather similar to ours.

You yourself, Great One have argued that the sheet is unable to be a perfect representation of all the skills/attributes a character would have. Which is true. It's that which leads me to argue that there's enough sheet overlap to handle Umbrial Pilot without needing another Ability.


Anyway, what's the thoughts on the general Secondaries rule? I don't care how annoying I am, I want this sorted so I can move on to other things.

[Warpmind]

In fairness, Colin had the benefit of remembering some twenty years of future umbral flight experience just prior to Morgan inheriting the shuttle in the first place... so he had something of a leg up in the matter.

And his knowledge of the other worlds is somewhat colored by pop culture, to be honest, more than by academic study on the subject. He'll be better - at present - at navigating to an Umbral Realm than navigating in it...

[Nicole Bouchard]

I would retort' 'that explains why he's got Pilot 4 then' - after all, that is basically 'if it flies I can fly it' territory by cheating and stealing future experiences. *smirks* If it's difficult to fly in the Umbra, simply up the difficulty for the roll! I fully expect Nick's Drive rolls to be higher difficulty in the Umbra, even just the Preumbra.

And having Cosmology 2 would represent the 'gaps' and 'errors' in his knowledge. After all, that's what a fail roll is, isn't it? Plus, perhaps Colin could take 'Flight' speciality for Cosmology straight off.

I admit, Pilot+Cosmology is not a perfect fit for Umbrial Pilot but I think I'm making a fair stab at arguing that it could work.

Plus, I don't want to have to buy 'Umbrial Drive'.

[Warpmind]

Nah, Pilot 4 was something he got in the RAF, pre-campaign.

It's not necessarily that it's difficult to fly in the Umbra, just different. Also, the controls would largely not be perfect analogues to Earthside aircraft, either. Driving in the Penumbra, probably not really any more difficult, in terms of avoiding collisions, the tricky bit there is finding where to drive. Sort of like trying to navigate Newcastle for the first time by car, only going by the locals' directions (relying on knowing where shops were fifteen years ago before they closed), when you've spent your entire life in Cardiff. It's not the driving itself that's the problem, but finding out where the hell you're supposed to go, so a separate "Umbral Driving" skill with a mundane car would probably not be relevant.

[Nicole Bouchard]

This might sound a little odd, but I suspect no, actually.

Military pilots generally only know how to fly a very few planes - Colin wouldn't have experienced even half of the RAF's then-current inventory. You'd be trained on the craft for that purpose [Jetstream/Hawk etc] and then be sent for advanced training for your designated craft [Harrier/Tornado/Sea Kings/etc] and then you'd be expected to get very good at those few.

Unless Colin spent time in the Maintenence/Logistics Corps, that is. They're the folks who handle recovery of downed craft, redeployments, deliveries etc. They're different as they're expected to handle *all* craft - 80s Colin could have handled everything from the WW2-esque Shackleton to the nuclear-armed Vulcan. This is particulary important as every craft has it's own, sometimes very different controls.

Anyway, *how* is flying in the near-Umbra different to Mundie variants? Now, there's almost no canon on this but I'll make an educated guess and say 'it's like the 1930s'.

No autopilots - can't be trusted in this envioroment. No air traffic control [though the crewed ports will have a controller for landing/take offs]. Precious few location transponders; most cities will have one [for navigation] but that's it. Weather events? Well, you have to simply grit teeth and bear with it [occasionally praying you can pull it off].

Umbrial flight is 'old school'. Colin's RAF ancestors - the 'tashed chaps who went up to shoot down Goring's toys - would have had more applicable flight experience than their modern variants.

Therefore, I'd argue near-Umbrial flight of any length really requires Pilot 3, representing the sheer skill level required. And 'Cosmology' represents Colin getting breifings on the Umbrial risks and studying some maps.

[Warpmind]

Ah, but the thing is, Umbral Flight isn't for just buzzing along in the Near Umbra. Colin's flown trips to Horizon - to Concordia - in the shuttle, not just jaunts around Boston's shadow. The distinction between the seaworthiness of a dinghy and a galleon.

And no, I'm not gonna assume Colin's Pilot 4 is going to make him intimately familiar with everything from an Sikorsky S-5 to the Blue Dragon - though he could probably take over and perform an emergency landing safely in a 747 if needed.

For Near-Umbra flights, sure, regular Pilot would apply - if the controls were identical, that is, but I understand the shuttle as only superficially similar in control layout.

[Nicole Bouchard]

Yes... but would flying to Horizon *be* that hard? It's a well-known place, which will have many ships going to/from it. It's not Null-B or some backwater realm - within limits, Horizon *wants* people to visit it. Extrapolating from the Horizon book, I suspect the normal route would be...

#1: Find Node which the Horizon Portal is big enough to take craft.
#2: Clear Node 'security'.
#3: Fly through Portal.
#4: Come out Horizon-side.
#5: Clear Horizon 'security'.
#6: Land at Concordia.

Now, as long as our gallant crew have the permits/etc to get through the security lines and know the location of the Node, the only real difficulty will be #3, and chances are that won't be that hard because a well-used 'shipping lane' will be kept relatively free of obstacles. So it won't be that taxing a flight - in fact, the flight *to* the Node-Portal might be the difficult leg [after all, might be attacked by... something.]

To use your sailing ship analogy again, yes while flying to Concordia might be 'a galleon', it's a galleon which possesses a decent map and is following a known, rather heavily used sea-lane. Colin won't be playing Magellan or Columbus, more the boring merchant sailor who's going from Oslo to Lisbon with a galleon full of timber and salted herring [watch out for the privateers in the English Channel!]


And while Pilot 4 may not make him 'intimately familiar' with anything which ever flew, I'd argue that it does generally mean they're familiar with enough types that by this point, if he's not flown it, he's flown something somewhat like it and if not that, give him a half-hour Q&A with another pilot or a manual and he'll pick it up - you understand the principles, you know the jargon and you have the general skills. 'Different control layout' is nothing really - it means he'll be a little slow on reactions [as no muscle memory yet] but at least he'll generally know what each control does [I imagine the shuttle cockpit has lots of sticky-labels right now]. RL example; when a pilot got to fly a zeppelin.


Lastly, we need to remember that Pilot is *already* a Secondary - therefore, a niche. You've shelled out a lot of XP on an Ability which you've used... how many times IC? Honestly put; I feel that niche should pull it's weight a bit more! What's more... my proposal would actually increase Colin's shuttle-flying skill [well, his dice pool at least].


So while you made a decent argument to why in an ideal world Umbrial Pilot should survive, you've not got close enough [in my opinion] to argue that it cannot at all be handled by Pilot + Cosmology okay [using difficulty increases when needed]. Which means it fails my #1 rule for Secondaries. [So does Nick's Scrounge/Larceny, btw].

[Oh, I think Mythbusters tested your question [from Airplane!]. Result; yes, a Cessna pilot could land a 707, as long as there's an experienced pilot on the radio to talk them through it.]

[Warpmind]

Okay, for starters, taking some Umbral Gate to Horizon would be one thing, but taking the "long" way out there, it's pretty damn far, ref. White Wolf's own description of the Umbra here. Concordia is not anywhere near Earth, it's a pretty tricky trip, too, as per the description of the route to Horizon here. Going by the Gates is easy enough, if you can reach them, but shuttlecraft would be relying on the Ways, not the Gates.

As for Colin's Pilot being a secondary that hasn't seen play - true enough, but it is a background thing. The man is certified to pilot military helicopters (though admittedly he won't be taking any armed gunships up from a military base anytime soon - even if his certs are maintained), which requires a fourth-dot ability to attain in the first place. It's not something that's been rolled for in-game, but it is something he has used during downtime, and which has come up on occasion as a needed service.

But piloting a terrestrial aircraft still operates with different physics and vectors than those found outside the Near Umbra.

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