House Rules

Noting that Colin's Sanctum is his workshop in the basement of his shop - it it were in the Chantry proper, I think it would be reasonable that he and Hermetics in particular would find their magic to come just a little easier than outside, possibly only imperceptibly so compared to the Chantry proper, but Technomancers might not find any appreciable benefit to working there - or possibly even a minor impairment to their work, as the Sanctum is attuned to the particular Paradigm of the Mage who owns it. Colin's not a Hermetic, but some of his approaches and methods do mirror theirs more than any other Tradition, and so they might benefit from such overlap. He can't quite figure out how Scientists do their work (though he can understand the most fundamental principles), nor, say, how the Akashics do theirs, and so his Sanctum would be less generous to their methods.

It would be a reality zone inside a reality zone so Russian doll like deal here and yes I agree with what Colin's Sanctum would work.

As it is, though, relatively few people are invited into his Sanctum in any case, for fairly obvious reasons. Not even counting the torpid vampire hidden behind the sheet silver. Wink

At least he is not keeping this vampire.

Secondaries: Hypertech fills a slot which isn't really covered. 'Jury-Rig' is very close to 'Crafts' - so close in fact I once took the former as a speciality for the latter. I'm more in the 'minimalist' camp; partly 'cos if sheets get too bloated I end up [as ST] simply forgetting about stuff. And while I usually engage in a bit of 'flavour spending', I'm not going to do much of it as it does reduce the character's core capabilities. Example with Nicole is her cooking abilities - something which could theoretically be expressed as a Secondary. However, I've not bothered even asking about that as I don't think the Great One would ever need to do a roll on Nick's ability to say make a cake.

Unless we get into the situation where Nicole have to make a cake to try to impress someone during an important meeting then no and in that case we can use Expression for the roll, but yes some secondaries cover things not covered by other skills like Hypertech, Umbral Pilot one of which will be needed to pilot a Umbra ship, the various lores and other small specialty skills not really covered, in which case we roll those, for secondary covered by a main ability we will just use it as a specialization which reduce difficulty.

Sanctum: Magick performed within Sanctum is at reduced difficulty. Normally, magick cast within Chantry is also at reduced difficulty. All I was wondering was: if the Sanctum is within a Chantry, do the difficulty reductions stack or not?

I'd say the Sanctum bonus stacks with the Chantry bonus for the Mage who owns the Sanctum, and possibly for Magi who share their Paradigm.

No Colin's Sanctum is not in the Chantry it is under his shop but if it where yes then the bonuses would stack. I would say a Sancrum within a favorable reality sone stacks.

Local Consensus: I know it doesn't base itself on what the crunch benefit is to one side or the other. My point is that as the consensus changes, some things become more/less possible with time. And sometimes, folk don't realise this until it's too late. In my 'Doissetep, c1875' example it could be the consensus at that time didn't allow say the deployment of Union Hypertech toys. In c2015, the Union can deploy such things now... but the defenders haven't realised this. It's the Mage equivalent of the French High Command in 1940, blithely stating "the Ardennes is impassable to tanks" on the basis that "it was impassible before".

Oh absolutely absolutely and many realms do remai stuck in the Paradigm they where created in, like the Dreamspeaker realm I have forgotten the name of but which is stuck in a stone age culture and Technomagick will be highly vulgar there. I am just saying that Dositeppe and Horizon have not remained trapped in a exclusively mystical Paradigm, they are described in the cannon and both allow all magick to be done without the risk of Paradox unless you fuck up or try something that offend reality such as Gilgul. Horizon for example have an Umbral dock, an Etherite medical clinic and a Etherite and Virtual Adept section of the main Chantry. But yes other realms might be a problem for Nicole's Science or a benefit to it and a issue for mystics but those realms have not shown up in game yet.

Local Consensus: And all I'm saying is that this 'reality drift' towards Science may be one of the reasons the Union has increasingly gained the upper hand through the 20th Century; that when they deployed say early HITs etc against a Hermetic Chantry in c1900 they got hit with Paradox at every turn and got creamed - but a new attempt in c2005 meant their HITs worked fine in the Chantry now because the technomancers unwittingly eroded one of the main defences over a century. Even the 'techno-mystics' such as House Thig, urban shamans etc have helped this.

Well in our reality yes one of the greatest accomplishments of the Union have been the drift towards their own Paradigm which is why they hold a stronger position in the Asencion war. Also yes in earlier times when the world was more mythical techomagick gave more Paradox though even that had less Paradox back then than in modern times as it was less of it. And yes off course a realm with technomancers who have a shared Paradigm will not have the advantage of a consensus friendly only to them, but there is little to be done with that for a shared Chantry.

Yeah, pretty much. Between the editions it goes something like this:

Sorcerer's Crusade/DA Mage: these had some wholly different mechanics that didn't always play well, but generally, the consensus was more friendly to mystic paradigms and also the local belief systems of the time and area - paradox was called the Scourge and wasn't as harsh as paradox came to be over time, via the rise of beliefs that went against mystic paradigms. Of note, this was created well after First ed.
1e - all hell can break loose because the rules weren't quite /there/ yet and they hadn't thought long term about the implications for things. They had broad strokes down for stuff like the consensus.
2e - set up the consensus where it is mostly like the 90s IRL, and described mostly in terms of places like America. Mystics can do magick but it's harder than it use to be 'back in the good old days' and advanced technomagick is what you'd see on sci-fi TV. Realms and sanctums are explained for how they work within the consensus. This is kinda where we are - vulgar magick can be hard, but you can pull of feats with resources.
Revised - Horizon has fallen, the Masters are stuck in realms maybe never to be reached again, and the mystics are scrambling (so are the Technocrats, actually), magick is harder to do, but especially mystic vulgar magick and the umbra is a nearly impassable barrier due to the avatar storm (we aren't using the avatar storm, though it's been hinted as a future fate). Really big magick was hard, and paradox slapped you /really hard/.
M20 - in general has consensus as a middle ground between Revised and other editions (updated to today's standards of what's possible) and allows the GMs to decide how much to incorporate certain aspects from previous editions. The consensus is described more with regards to how locally it can be different, from say London to the middle of Madagascar.

Also I'm super curious about how the Victorian Mage supplement is gonna be - they had a resurgence of mystic interest in that time period so maybe we'll see a flux in the consensus

Victorian Mage is one of the books I am looking forward to the most that and the Fallen book because we all need more Nephandi in our lives. I would also love if they did a Roman times Mage, I have been working on a campaign using bits and pieces of information about orders and groups which was active back then but there is not that much to find.

As for the rest of your post, that is spot on yes I have nothing to add.

Oh and we are using 2 edition Paradox bleed rules since they fit the 2 edition setting we are using best, so that is 1 point of Paradox blood off per week you do nto get more Paradox, if you get dox that week do not count. If you have more than 10 points you have to have a backlash it will not bleed of, more then 20 you turn Marauder or you die, usually in spectacular ways, this havee been the fate of more than one Flambeau.

Consensus: Yes, there's nothing the 'mystics' can do about it. Hell, the vast majority wouldn't even be aware of the 'changes'. Though I do wonder what the 'population numbers' of each of the Traditions actually are...

Victorian Mage: Anyone here know of VtR's 'New Wave Requiem'? That's what I'd actually like to see for the various lines - 'Historial Splats'. A series of small books providing material to run say a VtM game in the 1970s, MtA in the 1960s, WtA in the 1980s and so on. Perhaps with a historical city using a cut-down version of the '...by Night' format.

I have a question regarding Roman Mage, Great One; did the Order of Hermes subsume the old 'Cult of Mithras' or have some connection? [A little weird you mentioned this topic, as this very morning one of my own players asked me this].

Consensus: Yes, there's nothing the 'mystics' can do about it. Hell, the vast majority wouldn't even be aware of the 'changes'. Though I do wonder what the 'population numbers' of each of the Traditions actually are...

Mages do not count anyway as they are not part of the Consensus. The only thing the Traditions can do about it is to win hearts and minds and make magick more accepted again, no sleeper would be aware of the changes they will just think that in older times people had now outdated ideas which was not true they do nto know that when most believed them they where in fact true.

As for the numbers there is not allot of cannon knowledge, there are a number given in 1 edition Order of Hermes Tradition book but it is to low to really have a society like the various mage books describe so most ignore that, me included. Other than that all we know is this, The Traditions and the Technocracy have about the same number of Awakened, then the Marauders and then the Nephandi have the fewest members. In the Traditions the Order of Hermes, the Verbena and the Dreamspeakers are the most numerous while the Euthanathos are the smallest, and that 800 Virtual Adepts left the Union but only 200 was left to join the Traditions. I go with about 20 000 Awakened members in the Traditions on a world basis and allot more hedge wizards for a high fantasy 2 edition game like this with allot less for a street level campaign.

Victorian Mage: Anyone here know of VtR's 'New Wave Requiem'? That's what I'd actually like to see for the various lines - 'Historial Splats'. A series of small books providing material to run say a VtM game in the 1970s, MtA in the 1960s, WtA in the 1980s and so on. Perhaps with a historical city using a cut-down version of the '...by Night' format.

"I have that book. Yes I would actually like that to see historical splats which would allow players to set games in a multitude of time periods. It should be for each line though as if it is just generally for WoD Vampire tend to get all the attention, do not get me wrong I love Vampire but Mage would need some information as well.

I have a question regarding Roman Mage, Great One; did the Order of Hermes subsume the old 'Cult of Mithras' or have some connection? [A little weird you mentioned this topic, as this very morning one of my own players asked me this].

No they came from the Cult of Mercury, though they got a bit of their material from different sources. Basically what happened was that you had a highly ritualistic order called the Cult of Mercury, they fell with the Roman empire but bits and pieces of their knowledge base, including Greek/Egyptian Hermetism reminded with it's descendants. The in the early middle ages around 700 a man named Bonisagus apprenticed a woman named Trionoma and together they got an idea for an order of mages from different traditions based in the Hermetic ideas from the past and they sent out a magical call, and from those who showed up they created the Order of Hermes which eventually got 13 founding Houses. I beleive the Chorus have a bit of the Cult of Mitras in it though.

Oh there is one connection between the Cult of Mitras and the Order of Hermes I had forgotten about. Flambeau the Founder was a member before he was recruited by the Order of Hermes but this was during the middle ages and not in ancient times so it was about year 700 and I do not think he was extremely old before he joined the Order.

Numbers: I've long wondered whether the various Traditions 'wax and wane' in applicant numbers due to the goings-on in the wider Sleeper world, such as with popular culture. An example could be that while Hermetics might have ground their teeth in the '90s/'00s from the whole Harry Potter thing, now in the '10s they're reaping the rewards from an uptick of apprentices...

Historical Books: There's many such books which could be made; one off the top of my head could be "VtM: The Red Flag" detailing the structure of a almost-never mentioned proto-sect - the Brujah Revolutionaries who [apparently] took power in Russia in 1917 [such as; were they part of the Camarilla, a more 'organised Anarchs' similar to VtR's 'Carthian Movement' or what?]

I get the economic case for splats, but thing is I don't want just another one with a bottled story I'll never use; in those cases, the most 'useful' part of it [for me] is usually the small stock of NPCs done for it. My view can be pretty much summed up as 'I don't want stories; I want the *tools* to make stories'.

Mithras: While the Order is mainly descended from the Cult of Mercury, it's not just that; the books make it fairly clear what comes to be known as 'Hermetic' is actually a composite of most of the Classical 'mystery cults' - The Cult of Isis > House Shea being the most obvious. [Which is interesting, as the Sorcerer book lists Mercury and Isis as active and independent outside of the Order].

I don't see why similar couldn't have happened with Mithras; the majority ending up in the Order when Christianity burnt their tomes and pulled down their temples, with a minority limping on alone.

I ask this because I've got a player who wants to play a non-Tremere thaumaturge, and they proposed 'taught by Kindred Mithras Cultists' as the 'how?' answer. I was wondering if I could draw a thread from said cult to the Tremere, to basically justify using the Warlock's Rituals etc.

Plus, I'm not stupid and the player is so going to want to make their own cult at some point.

Maybe someone will work on some Storyteller Vault historical setting stuff, or for those smaller groups where it was mentioned almost in passing and not elaborated on. The STV is a mixed bag but there has been some good stuff in there too.

Yes, 'hermetic' is syncrentistic IRL and in the game, and similarly Greeks and Romans also took different aspects of whatever and integrated it (or, in the case of Rome, as they spread their Empire, that stuff became a part of it, too). Also the Order pretty much was join or die at the time of it's Founding.

I asked something about Mitras too before since I was wondering about it - there also could have been more than one person named Mitras, not uncommon to name yourself after a god (Hermes-Thoth is attributed to lots of stuff, but who knows what was authentic, if any). Mitras originally was a Persian deity, then the Greeks gave him their own spin on it, then the Romans made their cult-following which was especially popular in the Roman military and that is a very different thing than what the followers of Zoroastriansim believed. The cult was active IRL around 1-4 CE.

In the game he's a Ventrue embraced in 1258 BC and in the write up (I don't have all the vampire books), it seems that Mitras didn't like the Followers of Set or the Tremere (everyone hates the Tremere), and in the 1300s London during the plague wanted them expelled since they were Low Clans (and due to scarcity of good feeding, not worth the meal). So, by the books Mitras's cult is entirely it's own thing - the Tremere came into the picture around 1037 and on. From the short amount of what I gathered, it would be unlikely that a cultist of Mithras would be linked to the Tremere in a favorable way, but perhaps you can make the relationship work even if it's antagonistic?

The 'thread' I'm thinking is this. In short; the classical Cult of Mithras was subsumed into the Order of Hermes, leaving the Kindred part as a rump with their Thaumaturgy. This meant knowledge of the latter ended up with the Order - chances being the tomes were put on Chantry shelves and forgotten. Clan/House Tremere stole said tomes and adapted/refined them [always being ones who favoured shortcuts], explaining the 'how did they develop Thaumaturgy that damn quickly?' part.

Almost the only 'outsider' who noticed this was Mithras; perhaps told by members of his shrunken personal Cult and/or his own childe 'Vizier'. The Methusulah didn't need the Warlocks, the fact they claimed it was 'their magic' insulted him and Meelinda's arrogance pushed Mithras' fury to the point he bans them from his 'Kingdom'. Forever.

So in the Cultist's minds, the Tremere are double Usurpers - for both their undead nature and their magic were stolen.

Does that work?

Numbers: I've long wondered whether the various Traditions 'wax and wane' in applicant numbers due to the goings-on in the wider Sleeper world, such as with popular culture. An example could be that while Hermetics might have ground their teeth in the '90s/'00s from the whole Harry Potter thing, now in the '10s they're reaping the rewards from an uptick of apprentices...

The rate of Awakenings change from time to time yes so how many members the Traditions have will ebb and flow. Since the Traditions are a secret society though, other than some collage Chantries who generally train mages who then seek membership in a Tradition a Mentor choose a student, a Tradition do not generally get allot of applicants., but I suspect the ones they do get would ebb and flow with currents in society at large yes.

Historical Books: There's many such books which could be made; one off the top of my head could be "VtM: The Red Flag" detailing the structure of a almost-never mentioned proto-sect - the Brujah Revolutionaries who [apparently] took power in Russia in 1917 [such as; were they part of the Camarilla, a more 'organised Anarchs' similar to VtR's 'Carthian Movement' or what?]

I get the economic case for splats, but thing is I don't want just another one with a bottled story I'll never use; in those cases, the most 'useful' part of it [for me] is usually the small stock of NPCs done for it. My view can be pretty much summed up as 'I don't want stories; I want the *tools* to make stories'.

Communist era Russia is not really my thing but sure one could make a book about it, there is allot of regions and time periods which could get their own books. I tend to get all World of Darkness books that I can get my hand on yes but yes I prefer a historical book to be about the time period rather than be an adventure book with a pre made story, though I have noting against pre made adventure books as well, books just about a time period are more useful.

Mithras: While the Order is mainly descended from the Cult of Mercury, it's not just that; the books make it fairly clear what comes to be known as 'Hermetic' is actually a composite of most of the Classical 'mystery cults' - The Cult of Isis > House Shea being the most obvious. [Which is interesting, as the Sorcerer book lists Mercury and Isis as active and independent outside of the Order].

I don't see why similar couldn't have happened with Mithras; the majority ending up in the Order when Christianity burnt their tomes and pulled down their temples, with a minority limping on alone.

I ask this because I've got a player who wants to play a non-Tremere thaumaturge, and they proposed 'taught by Kindred Mithras Cultists' as the 'how?' answer. I was wondering if I could draw a thread from said cult to the Tremere, to basically justify using the Warlock's Rituals etc.

Plus, I'm not stupid and the player is so going to want to make their own cult at some point.

A non Tremere thaumathurge could have been trained by a vampire member of the Cult of Mitras absolutely but he would not be practicing the regular Taumathurgy of House Tremere which specifically follow a linage which trace itself back to Order of Hermes rituals, but something similar sure. As for Tremere well they come from Necromancers let me see as far as I know Guerna the Fetid was based in Southern Europe and was part of several Necromancer cults there so they could have had dealings with Cult of Mitrals but are not likely to have been members. But one can always say one Tremere took an interest in the Cult and a path to blood magick came from that, it is withing reason. I mean everything is possible but like Strife are saying a direct link is not likely, not with the Clan as a whole.

The 'thread' I'm thinking is this. In short; the classical Cult of Mithras was subsumed into the Order of Hermes, leaving the Kindred part as a rump with their Thaumaturgy. This meant knowledge of the latter ended up with the Order - chances being the tomes were put on Chantry shelves and forgotten. Clan/House Tremere stole said tomes and adapted/refined them [always being ones who favoured shortcuts], explaining the 'how did they develop Thaumaturgy that damn quickly?' part.

This is not likely as vampires really are very easy to spot for mages so while a Pagan cult could have ended up under House Ex Miscellaneae, vampire members would have been discovered, for example the vampiric Tremere was rooted out pretty damn quick. Also we know that the reason why they developed Taumathurgy is that it is a direct translation of Hermetic arts, some spells and rituals are for example completely the same, for example Circular ward against metal (Or anything else) the magus surround himself wit a circle of the material the ward is against and then carry a piece of it with him and for the rest of the day he is protected from being harmed by that material, this turned into deflection of the wooden doom. Cult of Mitras is such a big thing in the World of Darkness it is not likely a group of vampiric cult members have been able to hide within the Order in my opinion. It is more likely a group of them had developed their own path of blood magic, or that a Tremere vampire had fled from the Clan at some point and been accepted into the Cult, and this person later train your player's character, that could happen.

I didn't mean 'Kindred joined the Order' - more that the living 'Sorcerers' part did, leaving the 'Kindred' part all alone in their own dwindling independent cult. As the former didn't join the Order 'as a group' they ended up in various Houses. Hell, one of those may have ended up in House Tremere, delivering a tome or two to the Magus' hands providing details of Thaumaturgy [stolen from the Cult on leaving] as a 'gift'...

Hum living sorcerer joining that would work. The only issue I would have is that Thaumaturgy comes from Hermetic theory and I do not like a change which says it comes from Mitras vampires hiding in the shadows and not Bonisagus since that is the cornerstone of the Order. But yes there are former Mithras members in the Order like for example Flambeau the Founder who joined after he had killed 14 Order magi who was sent to give him a join or die ultimatum, and then Bonisagus himself spoke with him and offered him the Parma Magica if he joined, and well the chance to kick Muslim mages ass but that have been mostly cut from later editions of Ars and was never a part of Mage. Basically Flambeau was a Christian more or less fanatic with very big fireballs.

I'd argue that a Mithras Cult would be within Hermetic Theory. After all, if Isis, Kabbalah, Gnosticism, Pythagorean and Mercury gets a look in, why not Mithras? It was one of the richest, most visible mystery/ritual cults in the Roman Empire.

And when I say 'Thaumaturgy' I am using it as the VtM definition of, not MtA's; Awakened folk generally not needing such things. The Arts known by the Mithrian Sorcerers added itself to diverse nature of Hermetic magick, the ones practised by the undead 'Magi' remained in the musty tomes on dusty shelves until Tremere's minions 'borrowed' them.

Well in the middle ages Kaballah was not a part of Hermetic theory and neither was Gnostisism really, these where later additions. Hermetic theory comes from Greek and Islamic ideas forming the Corpus Hermeticum, so Cult of Isis yes, Pythagorean is part of the Corpus Hermeticum, but not all mystery Traditions are part of what became the Order of Hermes. However some of the Hermetic Houses are from other Traditions so it is possible some members of the Cult of Mitreas could have ended up in the order through that.

I am not personally a huge fan of the idea that the Tremere did not make Thaumathurgy but vampires from the Cult of Mistras did and then the Tremere got their hands on it and started using it, but if it works for a story you have planned it is not so far fetched it is not an idea that can be used.

With my historian hat on for a second, I'd [politely] retort that it's very difficult to define 'Greek' due to the whole interplay between the various cultures within the Mediterranean during the classical age. Also, the details known to us on Mithraism are incredibly spotty; the cult/religion seems to have pissed off the early Christians so much they went the further mile to ensure all texts on it were destroyed. And weirdly enough, the reasons why they did this were also destroyed [for some of these 'pagan' cults, the Christian condemnation is the only half-decent description we have]. An odd end for one of the largest societies within the Empire for around 300 years. But I digress...

As for 'Tremere stealing Thaumaturgy'... well, I think it fits the psyche of the man. One hungry for power and control, a distinct tendency to cut corners, not overly 'burdened' by pesky things such as honesty or honour and a pretty firm 'pragmatist'. It also fits the 'Hermetic method' - the trawling of old tomes and scrolls, 'seeing if what I want to do has been done before'. Standing on the shoulders of giants and all that...

Let me clarify a bit Hermetisism comes from one particular time period when the Greek had control over Egypt and their then current philosophy met with Islamic mysticism which had flooded into Egypt, it is not based on all Greek culture and philosophy but what you would find within that specific time period. But like I said there where allot of Hermetic houses and not all of them where originally based in the Corpus Hereticum.

I have never seen Tremere that way. He is described as being extremely skilled and meticulous. He made up for his weak magical abilities by being shrewd yes but not really by cutting corners. But a pragmatist yes that he was so he would for sure use whatever he found which had value.

Like I said since I have played so much Mage and Ars Magica the idea that Tremere did not make Thaumathurgy but stole it from other vampires do not sit right. But your idea is not so far fetched it can not be done, and it could be a fun story.

Alternatively, could you could have a subsect of Tremere (from the original mages who were turned into vampires) who were studying Mithraism as lore before they turned? They might want to keep their work a secret once they were made vampires so they could keep working on their lifelong project, something to hold onto from before they lost their avatars. It would be hard to keep a secret from your sire, especially in Clan Tremere, but I assume they are allowed to do their own projects as long as they are good for the Clan. So that's how they could frame it, and they'd have to give progress reports and such and so on but they could keep working. A bit like Hydra within SHEILD. And they would take their own childer and so on?

That is a really good idea actually I like it. I think the idea was though to have a non Tremere Cult of Mitras member vampire with Thaumathurgy. Though a sub group withing Clan Thremere practicing Mitras rites though I like that idea.

With Tremere, being skilled doesn't mean you don't make mistakes [to paraphrase Dumbledore, often it's the skilled people who screw up so amazingly, as they're usually in charge]. Plus while the magus himself may have been meticulous, this doesn't mean he was unable to make errors in calculations due to missing or incorrect information. The very point he *was* skilled and meticulous might have actually led to the common Mage disease: hubris. After all, they'd thought they could 'have cake and eat it' with the vampire potion...

Lastly, I'd argue the first century of Clan/House Tremere were incredibly risky. A stripling of a Bloodline, led by [admittedly skilled and driven] but at best young ancillas, on rapidly-declining terms with their Tzimisce 'parent' and realising that any night could be the one where the Order realised 'the change' and cast them out of the Tradition - or worse. If any time demanded 'pragmatism', or piled on the incentive to cut corners, now was it. After all, what risk was there? Re-using the arts from a old cult which had died out seven centuries ago? Who would realise? Who would care if they did? And would it even matter?

My idea would also back-fill a canon plothole - if the Tremere are so protective of Thaumaturgy [to the point teaching outsiders is a capital crime], how come quite a few elder elders seem to have a 'Tremere' Ritual / Path on their sheets? 'They were taught by survivors of the Cult of Mithras' would provide another explanation.

The Great One was right; this is for a non-Tremere Thaumaturgist - I'm basically trying to find an IC reason why they'd have it in a more interesting way than the bog-standard 'taught by Tremere defector'.

Strife's idea could be modded to be that perhaps a couple of early Warlocks defected to the Cult [or had engaged in 'magic trading' etc], in effect re-introducing 'Tremere Thaumaturgy' and thus explaining why their pseudo-paradigms are so similar.

Lastly, and perhaps most importantly the NPC 'Prince' is a Malkavian touching four digits who is utterly riddled with paranoia and hate regarding the Tremere. She *needs* an IC reason to not think the PC is just a 'Warlock puppet' so she doesn't use her nasty deus ex elder Dominate on them and rip their mind apart. [Hell, I pride myself in trying to avoid gaping plotholes like that].

But that's enough on that topic. This thread was intended to be regarding House Rules for this chronicle, not as a sounding board for another chronicle. Thanks for the help, mind.

Can I award some XP for the help? *smirks*

With Tremere, being skilled doesn't mean you don't make mistakes [to paraphrase Dumbledore, often it's the skilled people who screw up so amazingly, as they're usually in charge]. Plus while the magus himself may have been meticulous, this doesn't mean he was unable to make errors in calculations due to missing or incorrect information. The very point he *was* skilled and meticulous might have actually led to the common Mage disease: hubris. After all, they'd thought they could 'have cake and eat it' with the vampire potion...

Yes hubris did him in or rather desperation. Basically what happened was that around year 1000 Tremere was the only surviving Founder and he was on borrowed time. Hermetic Longevity Potions back then had a cap, a mage could get to about 300 perhaps 350 best case and then they either died or entered final twilight basically going Marauder, at this point Tremere was nearly 350 he had a few years left at best. In addition a phenomena called Reason was starting to affect Mythic Europe badly, making magick harder to do and the Order was genuinely afraid it would die out, in addition the Order had been through massive upheavals and so Tremere claimed he did not want to leave the Order in these desperate times without it's last surviving Founder, or he could just have been afraid to die, anyway some of his associates managed to capture to vampires and Tremere, a master necromancer at this point started experimenting on the two.

The Order had a ritual called the Lichdom ritual which would give a mage eternal life, but at great cost. Basically in it you have to cut all ties to everyone you have ever known, destroy all your own ongoing spells and talismans, kill your own familiar if you have one, craft a Primium dagger, use that to kill yourself after you have drunk a complicated potion and if done correctly this replace your blood and now you are immortal, your Avatar having become a part of your body so you can never Ascend but that did not bother them back then as they oly saw the Avatar as a Fount or a Gift, what did bother them is that litches get very static, very, very static. They really can not function well in the world anymore so even Tremere did not see lichdom as a solution, however he believed that using the blood of the two captured vampires would allow him to create a lichdom potion which would allow him to keep his connections to the world and his mind while becoming immortal, and so he gathered his apprentices and most of the leadership of the House and did the most stupid thing in World of Darkness history. He went through the lichdom ritual with his new ehm...improved potion together with the leadership of the House, instead of trying the experiment on one person.

Well what happens when you empty your veins of blood and drink vampire blood, well it did not turn them into litches, the only thing the potion did was make them something new and not Tzimisce. Now here is the only time Tremere really did act like a coward and without honor. If he had at this point admitted what he had done the Order would have been kind, it is not like he is the only Hermetic who have ever botched a working, but he feared loosing power and so he started mass embracing members of his House and by the time this was discovered almost all members of House Tremere had become vampires. The Order declared a Wizard's March, basically the mage version of a Blood Hunt, and many Tremere where killed, but those who escaped created the Clan as it is known today, the few remaining non vampires Tremere where moved to other Houses, most of them joined House Tytalus and House Tremere where declared fallen.

Some later suspected Tremere had planned this that he would rather be a vampire in charge of a new Clan than be dead, and so he had never attacked House Diedne in a move to stabilize the Order but in order to get their blood magick, though this was never proven.

Come to think of it Diedne probably had Mitras worshippers, mostly they where German and Cletic but they where made up of several Pagan, non Latin groups, so if the theory Tremere had planned this is right then your idea could work on that.

My idea would also back-fill a canon plothole - if the Tremere are so protective of Thaumaturgy [to the point teaching outsiders is a capital crime], how come quite a few elder elders seem to have a 'Tremere' Ritual / Path on their sheets? 'They were taught by survivors of the Cult of Mithras' would provide another explanation.

Well it is true Thaumaturgy is one of the worst kept secrets ever there are allot of Clans who have their own paths though that could be their own version of blood magic which is unrelated. We know he wanted to go after the other non Latin Houses as well and we know that the Diedne who was a part of the group who became the Verbena had blood magic. There is another link there the Verbena trace their linage and their magick to Lilith the first mage, the greatest of the Wyck, the first, pseudo human mages. Now some lore indicate Tzimisce was a Wyck before he was Embraced, we know he was a mage and the time line would make it possible he was a Wyck. Some lore mentioned here and there indicate that the mages who would eventually become the proto Verbena learned blood magick from Tzimisce who even if he had become a vampire still associated with the other Wyck. This is not cannon as such, it is presented as a theory and wild tales here and there in the books, but it could fit in with your idea.

The Great One was right; this is for a non-Tremere Thaumaturgist - I'm basically trying to find an IC reason why they'd have it in a more interesting way than the bog-standard 'taught by Tremere defector'.

Strife's idea could be modded to be that perhaps a couple of early Warlocks defected to the Cult [or had engaged in 'magic trading' etc], in effect re-introducing 'Tremere Thaumaturgy' and thus explaining why their pseudo-paradigms are so similar.

That do work.

Lastly, and perhaps most importantly the NPC 'Prince' is a Malkavian touching four digits who is utterly riddled with paranoia and hate regarding the Tremere. She *needs* an IC reason to not think the PC is just a 'Warlock puppet' so she doesn't use her nasty deus ex elder Dominate on them and rip their mind apart. [Hell, I pride myself in trying to avoid gaping plotholes like that].

But that's enough on that topic. This thread was intended to be regarding House Rules for this chronicle, not as a sounding board for another chronicle. Thanks for the help, mind.

Can I award some XP for the help? *smirks*

I hate Malkavian Princes...and yes I know the Prince of Boston is a Malkavian. But yes we should move this discussion to another thread if we are continuing it. No exp for pointing that out but good try though.

Moved to https://chantrysteelhaven.forumotion.com/t197-general-wod-chat#29473

Thank you for moving the conversation.

Aw, but Malkavians make the *best* Princes, unburdened by this pesky sanity that holds everyone back!