Re: Downtime planning thread.

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

The rooftop garden have been in play quite a bit so I am not sure how you missed it, there have been several scenes happening there and it have been mentioned in conversation. I have seen pictures of several buildings with an attic and a flat roof and this one do have this. It is not only houses that have a slanted roof which create a half floor which have an attic and this is not always even an attic. I grew up in a house with one and a half floor, the top floor was never called and attic.

The building is not square it is rectangular, even in the maps it is drawn as rectangular for both me and Strife, it have always been described as longer in one direction than the other. The garage was added later the building have been renovated since it was a boarding school it now have a big enough internal garage.

I would be grateful for a remade map but only if the Chantry have the same number of apartments, still have a flat room and an internal garage. Like I said the building was renovated and part of the basement was made into a garage and more basement dug out later. It have no hurry though as for the most part Strife's maps work, but updates are always welcome.

[Adley]

yeah the chantry is pretty big.  Anja's original maps didn't always line up with the stairwells and then on top of that the Sims4 wouldn't let me make staircases that made sense either because Sims 4 sucks like that lol, so that and the lot size constraint are the main issues. It's still on the biggest one iirc, and not quite to size. Though I could probably use build cheats now that they are enabled and there are new items from when I first made it. But the details like where the rooms are are roughly correct. Also it would be great if whatever map we have is stickied into it's home thread. We can also add Nic and Serge's rooms, and Colin moved his.

The base building frame I used was 117 Heath st Boston which irl was also used as a brewery for part of it's life:  https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/117_Heath_St_Boston.JPG

[Nicole Bouchard]

- No, I missed the fact that the Chantry has in effect six stories [basement, first, second, third, attic and roof]. I thought 'attic' was simply a alternative name for 'third'. I partly put this confusion down to the fact that second/third floor's layouts are almost identical [so my mind didn't notice they were two images, not one].

- Ah, you're referring to the 'crawl spaces' between ceilings and a flat roof? I can see why you'd call that 'an attic', though neither I, Wikipedia or a Google image search would.

However, there is another option; the original part of the building is pitched [so containing the 'attic floor'] but the extension part is flat [and contains the garden]. This would help in the fact the attic floor doesn't seem to have enough rooms in it to fill all the space. Lastly, this option would allow the fitting of solar panels at some point [which I've been vaguely thinking could be one of the 'technological improvements' Nick would/is pressing for (another being security cameras).]

- The building is square-ish [as per the layout plans]. And as one who's spent far too many hours listening to that jazzy piano music on build mode, I think I know why: it was the only way Strife could fit all the required rooms on the lot. [And why the 'apartments with no windows' happened; it was either that or having stupidly large hallways].

- There are a few, fairly minor edits I'd make in a new plan. I'd make a few of the apartments a bit bigger for the senior members of the Chantry, add a main 'stairwell' running through the building, perhaps a secondary stairwell in the extension and 'stretch out' the building a bit to use just one main hallway. Lastly, I'd have to find a way to 'square the circle' regarding the extent/location of the garage.

EDIT: Strife's picture actually supports my 'half-and-half' roofing idea. *smirks*

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

We have based ourselves more on descriptions than the maps and we have always spoken of two floors with apartments and then an attic. I am sorry you missed this though.

No I am not referring to crawl spaces, I am referring to half floors, best example I can think of the bat is the attic in Charmed. However this is irelevant as this is not how the attic at steelhaven is, it is simply a floor over the third floor which was previously rather undeveloped.

We are NOT going to redesign how the Chantry have been described for four years. No one else wish this and no one else have a problem with the Chantry design, we are not splitting it, the roof is right over the attic. Not all attics look the same.

We just SAID tthe maps are not accurate, but if you look at the number of apartments and their size and the description of the Chantry in game it is not square it is rectangular.

All the apartments have windows.

Non of the apartments are bigger, a few of them have two smaller bedrooms instead of one big one but they are all mostly the same. Master Steelhaven was never arrogant, he never believed Masters should live better than younger magi, that is why the Chantry do not have a Sentinel Cabal who do all the dirty jobs for years before they gain full membership.

There are not two stair cases there are one staircase between each floor. I think that over the years the Chantry have been described fairly well and while I might not be able to fully vizualize space you get the general impression of the Chantry the layout and what rooms there are.

The arric covers the entire floor area of the other floors so it is definitively big enough it was just not developed as well when the Chantry as set up.

While I welcome cleaning up the map and fixing the window issue and such, we are not redesigning the Chantry.

[Nicole Bouchard]

- Well, crawl spaces - if generous enough - can end up being half-floors...

- To re-jig the map so the apartments have windows etc would require - if only a little - a 'redesign'.

- To only have one set of stairs for each floor would mean, quite literally there's no alternative means of movement in case of fire, attack and so on. Esp. on a building of this size. The slight shifting of the staircases so they're together is standard in multi-floor buildings.

- I don't actually have 'a problem' with this. Once again, my desire to help and enthusiasm has been taken completely the wrong way. For this, I apologise. And politely withdraw my offer/suggestion if it's seemingly causing so much aggro - which you neither deserve or was the intention.

[Warpmind]

Hum, using 900 sqft apartments as a baseline (which should be relatively modest for Boston, but not too unreasonable for a building of its age), I'd put the floor size of the Chantry at something around 21,000 sqft or so, making an estimate of about 100,000 sqft total for the whole building (garage, basement, and attic included, but not the roof) seem to be about right.

Not too shabby for a 90+ years old building.

[Nicole Bouchard]

RE: Thread.

Great One, are you describing the third or second floors? Sorta-decided Nicole's place would be on the third [well, she's one of the more physically fitter in the Chantry].

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

I described the second floor that is where there is fighting. If Nicole's room was on the third floor then just ignore what is going on on the second, I could not remember which floor her room was on when posting yesterday and I was on my way out and I did not have the time to check so I described the second floor in case it was there.

I am sorry for the late rely here I did not notice your question before now.

[Nicole Bouchard]

RE: Skill Dot levels.

Well Colin is a professional craftsman who makes things for his store as his regular, daily job. The forth dot indicate a skilled professional, you become a skilled professional by practice. Basically * means you have just started doing something so for example if we takes Crafts I would have * in sewing since I have taken a sewing class and have made two skirts and three dresses now. ** is a skilled amateur, this is where you wil find allot of etsy sellers, they make things that are good enough to sell but they are not yet professional. *** means you can do whatever you have the skill in for a living. **** Means you are a skilled professional that are sought after for your work, for example GTS who make hair forks of exceptional quality and unfortunately also price would have Crafts Woodcutting 4 ***** means you are in the world class, for a jeweler that would mean you are known to be the best of the best, if some nation's crown jewels need repairing they will call on you, if some movie star want a custom engagement ring made they will call on you. I see no problem using, I do this for a living, as a justification of going from Crafts 3 to 4, having a teacher makes learning skills easier, one might need to spend less exp to do so, but one do not need a teacher to reach the forth dot.

Counter-points:

#1: I'd personally say three-dot is 'skilled professional', four-dot is in 'master [of skill]' level. And while folk can/do improve their skills from simple practice and teaching themselves, often the quickest/easiest way is to seek out a teacher, or more likely a series of teachers. If anything else, not all professionals have mastered all the 'tricks of the trade' yet and often they might have picked up a few 'bad habits' from say their original teacher(s). Lastly, often at three-dot you've reached the place where 'open' sources such as books and the internet are useless for you.

#2: Most 'professionals' will tell you most of their work is fairly routine in nature. If a tattooist spends some 75% of their time doing the same flash [pre-made designs you see on the boards] it's only improving their skill in doing that, not their 'tattooing' skill in general. That a 'master' needs to have experience of a myriad of 'unique challenges' to truly stretch their abilities.

#3: 'Masters' often have a 'wider' skill-base. Going back to the tattooist example, they may be experienced in different styles [traditional American vs Japanese], differing goals [such as covers, or medical], or even experienced in 'related fields' - such as body modification and scarification. Naturally, all these skills aren't all found in the same person.

#4: The 'uprating' to 4 isn't just for the one 'skill' mentioned - it's for all of them. If Colin becomes a 'master silversmith' [L4], it also means he's also improved his abilities in metallurgy, carpentry, gunsmithing, bladesmithing, glass-making, textiles, leatherworking, auto repair...

Therefore, I personally feel an upgrading to four dots does requires more justification. And why personally I've been holding off getting any L4's for Nick until the next Downtime - where there will [hopefully] be enough 'space' to justify her becoming really good at something. Plus, I object to Colin becoming a better mechanic than Nicole. *tongue*

Oh, this isn't an argument or anything, Great One. Your ruling goes. Merely my thoughts on the subject.

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

#1: I'd personally say three-dot is 'skilled professional', four-dot is in 'master [of skill]' level. And while folk can/do improve their skills from simple practice and teaching themselves, often the quickest/easiest way is to seek out a teacher, or more likely a series of teachers. If anything else, not all professionals have mastered all the 'tricks of the trade' yet and often they might have picked up a few 'bad habits' from say their original teacher(s). Lastly, often at three-dot you've reached the place where 'open' sources such as books and the internet are useless for you.

This is not what the book say and not what we are playing with. We are going to follow the regular scale here. Also yes having a teacher will make learning easier, however if your character practice a skill often I will allow it to be increased teacher or no.

#2: Most 'professionals' will tell you most of their work is fairly routine in nature. If a tattooist spends some 75% of their time doing the same flash [pre-made designs you see on the boards] it's only improving their skill in doing that, not their 'tattooing' skill in general. That a 'master' needs to have experience of a myriad of 'unique challenges' to truly stretch their abilities.

And yet despite this most I know who are tattoo artists have gotten considerably better over the years. Aso a fair bit of Colin's work are custom pieces which is already established.

#3: 'Masters' often have a 'wider' skill-base. Going back to the tattooist example, they may be experienced in different styles [traditional American vs Japanese], differing goals [such as covers, or medical], or even experienced in 'related fields' - such as body modification and scarification. Naturally, all these skills aren't all found in the same person.

Irrelevant. Colin have been shown to use a multitude of methods to work with silver including but not limited to joining it with other metals, plating, and as inlays in wood. Also four dots are skilled professional not world class master we are following the books on this.

#4: The 'uprating' to 4 isn't just for the one 'skill' mentioned - it's for all of them. If Colin becomes a 'master silversmith' [L4], it also means he's also improved his abilities in metallurgy, carpentry, gunsmithing, bladesmithing, glass-making, textiles, leatherworking, auto repair...

No it is not. It have been made clear in book after book that with skills such as Craft a person have one or a small handful of things they know how to make, not all the things. What a character is able to craft is made clear from their background, meaning Colin can craft silver, he can do things that are related to that but he have zero knowledge of how to sew a dress. Yu Die have Craft of 2 she made beaded jewelry and sew things, mostly costumes for cosplay, she do not know how to smith silver. It is not a catch all skill.

Therefore, I personally feel an upgrading to four dots does requires more justification. And why personally I've been holding off getting any L4's for Nick until the next Downtime - where there will [hopefully] be enough 'space' to justify her becoming really good at something. Plus, I object to Colin becoming a better mechanic than Nicole. *tongue*

A Colin can justify being very good at silversmithing it is his job he have been doing it professionally for 25 years. B you can personally want to change how the dots are laid out as you wish but we are going with what the book says which is:

*Beginner
**Competent amateur
***Professional
****Highly skilled professional
*****Master

You are free to update things Nicole have been doing allot as indicated by her background.

The thing is it do not make sense to change the entire basis for the rules system used now four years into the game. Colin is not a mechanic. Craft is like with Music, if you have the skill Music it do not mean you can play every instrument, you can play one instrument, perhaps a few depending on the character, but you will not be able to play every single instrument in the world.

You see that do not make sense. Some things carry over, if you know how to knit it is easier to pick up crochet, but do you know anyone who do crafts who can do every craft? I mean I consider myself rather competent at making jewelry. I have offers of commissions, that do not mean I know how to carve figurines out of wood, it just don't work like that. Your Craft skill contain what it would be logical for your character to know. Fran actually have a higher Craft skill than Colin, she is an expert seamstress, but she do not know how to make a gun, or get a ring out of a bit of scrap silver, or can she arrange flowers or know how to bind books.

[Nicole Bouchard]

This is not what the book say and not what we are playing with. We are going to follow the regular scale here. Also yes having a teacher will make learning easier, however if your character practice a skill often I will allow it to be increased teacher or no.

What I mean as 'skilled professional' is 'someone who could make a decent living from this without support' [which both Colin and Nick do]. That 'Master' was someone who was generally accepted as being 'one of the best' within the city or even region.

I might have got this impression from the Crafts definition in VtM, ['*** - Competent: You could start your own shop'] and WtA ['*** - Competent: You can reliably sell your creations for a tidy profit.'] both of which are games I learned way before MtA.

Irrelevant. Colin have been shown to use a multitude of methods to work with silver including but not limited to joining it with other metals, plating, and as inlays in wood. Also four dots are skilled professional not world class master we are following the books on this.

Just how common is '4-dot' craftspeople then? I was generally under the impression they'd be rather rare - let's say the 'top 10%' of jewellers, carpenters, metalworkers etc within a large city such as Boston.

No it is not. It have been made clear in book after book that with skills such as Craft a person have one or a small handful of things they know how to make, not all the things. What a character is able to craft is made clear from their background, meaning Colin can craft silver, he can do things that are related to that but he have zero knowledge of how to sew a dress. Yu Die have Craft of 2 she made beaded jewelry and sew things, mostly costumes for cosplay, she do not know how to smith silver. It is not a catch all skill.

With all respect, in the book(s) it is a catch-all skill - I've never seen any mention that if you took say Crafts 2 [Leatherwork] that '2' only applied to leatherwork, and if I wanted the character to also work with wood, I'd need to buy Crafts 1 [Carpentry]. Unless I'm really reading it wrong. If I'm not, what you've done is basically house-rule it to avoid 'Legal Stupid' decisions which we players have implicitly agreed with. Which is why we're only having this discussion several years into the game.

Look, I'm not asking for changes and I'm not rules-lawyering. I basically agree with your house-rule on this. However, seriously nerfing the whole 'Crafts' skill so it only applies to silversmithing for this case [purely an example - not picking on you, Warp!] seems too far the other way. In this case, wouldn't simply having that as a Secondary Skill [and getting the difficulty break on rolls with it] be better?

Which is the other 'half' of the reason I've held off L4 Abilities so far - that while Nicole has done quite a bit with some of her L3's, I don't feel the experiences have been 'wide enough' to justify the increase yet.

[Adley]

The entry on pages 279-280 in M20 detail the Craft skill - Level 4 are experts and level 5 are masters as per the book. You have to define a specialty in your craft even if you're not at rank 4 and each craft is separate unless the GM allows for the Well Skilled Craftsman optional rule (p. 280). There is also an alternative option for Hobby talents and Professional skills (that are learned through practical study and/or experience), those of which also must also be purchased separately or as part of the Well Skilled Craftsman optional rule if it is allowed to be used (on p. 277).

[Nicole Bouchard]

So, you're of the opinion that 'Crafts 1' [or whatever level] has to be re-bought repeatedly for each 'area'? So an 'experienced' char sheet might look like...

Crafts 1: [Carpentry]
Crafts 4: [Ceramics]
Crafts 3: [Gunsmithing]
Crafts 1: [Leatherwork]
Crafts 2: [Metalwork]
Crafts 3: [Repair]

Are you also applying this rule to, say Academics and Science? [which are both equally as broad as Crafts...]

[Adley]

I'm not making an opinion so much as giving the by the book rule. You  can check it out under the referenced pages, unless you don't have the M20 corebook ofc - but mostly that's how it works. A lot of the rules we're using are 2e still so it's ultimately up to Anja how much can be lumped under one category reasonably.  I can also dig out my 2e book to see if there's a vast difference. Secondary skills, professional skills and hobbies can come into play too since we're using some of them also (we had some rules conflicts early in the game and we tried to iron them out. Most of these we already talked about when you said you didn't like secondary skills iirc).

If we adopt Well Skilled craftsman, then that set of crafts might fall under Nic's professional skill, for example. I think that's why it was made an optional rule possible under M20 as I don't recall it being a thing in Rev or 2e. Similarly for Warp, sketching, silversmithing, forging, jewelsetting, etc could be under Professional skills. For Adley it probably would be teaching-related, etc

[Nicole Bouchard]

I have M20, and have read it. Also cross-referenced with V20 and W20 to see what they had to say.

I called it 'an opinion' as M20 is a touch opaque on this; while it says what you said it did - it did not explicitly state Crafts had to be repeatedly purchased. Nor in the 'sample rolls' section did it ever say 'Attribute + Appropriate Crafts', just 'Attribute + Crafts'. Plus, I've played under at least a dozen ST's [though mainly VtM or WtA] and this is the first time I've encountered this 'interpretation' - not even with 'Nicole Mk 1']. Thus the confusion.

Also, this 'interpretation' can also be equally applied to Academics and Science.

Oh, and for the record, I've got nothing against Secondaries per se [Nick has a few...]. Only ones which are easily folded into Primary Abilities. Just because I'm not a fan of 'sheet bloat'.

[Adley]

It does say that they have to be repeatedly bought if they are different things. And yes, it can apply to other things, it says under each category of the thing (ie, crafts) in similar to the way it does for crafts.

When purchasing this Skill, you must define a specialty for
your character even if you don’t have the usual four dots in the
Trait; this specialty defines a type of Craft you pursue, and you
get the bonus once you achieve at least four dots in that field.
If you want your character to have several Crafts, they should be
purchased separately. A mechanic who’s also good with ceramics,
woodworking, and home repair, for example, would have several
different Craft specialties to reflect her ability with each one.

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

What I mean as 'skilled professional' is 'someone who could make a decent living from this without support' [which both Colin and Nick do]. That 'Master' was someone who was generally accepted as being 'one of the best' within the city or even region.

That is three dots someone who can make a good living doing whatever they are doing and four dots is someone who is really skilled at it, five dots are one of the best in the region.

Just how common is '4-dot' craftspeople then? I was generally under the impression they'd be rather rare - let's say the 'top 10%' of jewellers, carpenters, metalworkers etc within a large city such as Boston.

The ten percent would be five dots. Basically it is not rare to have one or two fourth dots among one's skills, five dots though is very rare.

With all respect, in the book(s) it is a catch-all skill - I've never seen any mention that if you took say Crafts 2 [Leatherwork] that '2' only applied to leatherwork, and if I wanted the character to also work with wood, I'd need to buy Crafts 1 [Carpentry]. Unless I'm really reading it wrong. If I'm not, what you've done is basically house-rule it to avoid 'Legal Stupid' decisions which we players have implicitly agreed with. Which is why we're only having this discussion several years into the game.

The way I have always read this is that it is like with the second ed skill music where you do have to choose instruments, this is also what makes the most sense. I can make jewelry well enough to sell them. I would have two dots or so in that, it do not mean that I can make a chair, or blow glass that is just not how learning to make things work in real life. Craft is like with Music or Lore.

Look, I'm not asking for changes and I'm not rules-lawyering. I basically agree with your house-rule on this. However, seriously nerfing the whole 'Crafts' skill so it only applies to silversmithing for this case [purely an example - not picking on you, Warp!] seems too far the other way. In this case, wouldn't simply having that as a Secondary Skill [and getting the difficulty break on rolls with it] be better?

It is not a house rule it is in the books. Yes Colin's craft skill only apply to silversmithing, when he want to learn to work with glass as he have expressed a desire to he have to buy new specializations for that, he also can not knit a sweater.

Which is the other 'half' of the reason I've held off L4 Abilities so far - that while Nicole has done quite a bit with some of her L3's, I don't feel the experiences have been 'wide enough' to justify the increase yet.

Very well that is your choice.

The entry on pages 279-280 in M20 detail the Craft skill - Level 4 are experts and level 5 are masters as per the book. You have to define a specialty in your craft even if you're not at rank 4 and each craft is separate unless the GM allows for the Well Skilled Craftsman optional rule (p. 280). There is also an alternative option for Hobby talents and Professional skills (that are learned through practical study and/or experience), those of which also must also be purchased separately or as part of the Well Skilled Craftsman optional rule if it is allowed to be used (on p. 277).

Yeah that is pretty much it.

o, you're of the opinion that 'Crafts 1' [or whatever level] has to be re-bought repeatedly for each 'area'? So an 'experienced' char sheet might look like...

Crafts 1: [Carpentry]
Crafts 4: [Ceramics]
Crafts 3: [Gunsmithing]
Crafts 1: [Leatherwork]
Crafts 2: [Metalwork]
Crafts 3: [Repair]

Are you also applying this rule to, say Academics and Science? [which are both equally as broad as Crafts...]

I would say that if you are good at a craft you can repair things. My friends are consatantly bringing me their broken jewlery to fix for example. But yes learning to oh do wood working do not mean you know how to knit, that is not how reality works and the rules do try to reflect reality and make sense.

I would have Crafts Jewelry making 2, Crafts Handwork (As in sewing knitting and so on) 2 and a general Craft: Soap Making 1.

I'm not making an opinion so much as giving the by the book rule. You can check it out under the referenced pages, unless you don't have the M20 corebook ofc - but mostly that's how it works. A lot of the rules we're using are 2e still so it's ultimately up to Anja how much can be lumped under one category reasonably. I can also dig out my 2e book to see if there's a vast difference. Secondary skills, professional skills and hobbies can come into play too since we're using some of them also (we had some rules conflicts early in the game and we tried to iron them out. Most of these we already talked about when you said you didn't like secondary skills iirc).

If we adopt Well Skilled craftsman, then that set of crafts might fall under Nic's professional skill, for example. I think that's why it was made an optional rule possible under M20 as I don't recall it being a thing in Rev or 2e. Similarly for Warp, sketching, silversmithing, forging, jewelsetting, etc could be under Professional skills. For Adley it probably would be teaching-related, etc

The way I always understood Second Edition, things like Crafts where always something you took for each craft, it is the only thing that makes sense.

I think the well skilled craftsman option is a good idea to use, it allow for less things to write up.

As for academics well yes and now you have some general academics, if you have academics 2 that would normally just mean your character have a formal education but beyond that while you might not have to choose I would assume that a mathematician is not as good of a geologist as an actual geologist though that is more handled through roleplay than what is written on the sheet.

It is the same with anything really. I would have a decent Occult score but I do not know anything about every occult topic on this planet nor am I equally skilled at Hoodoo as I am at working with Telehma or mid Norwegian folk magic or Wicca, but for most skills we do it more as a roleplaying thing but with Crafts knowing how to make a chair really will not give much benefit when you are trying to sew a dress.

[Nicole Bouchard]

It does say that they have to be repeatedly bought if they are different things. And yes, it can apply to other things, it says under each category of the thing (ie, crafts) in similar to the way it does for crafts.

Oh, but Academics gets an escape hatch! "Even outside that specialty, however, your Academics rating reflects your general competence for scholastic subjects."

Now, while Adley's Academics [Linguistics] might offer a bit in say history, sociology and perhaps even a smattering of theology, no way does his Masters in the subject also grant nearly the same level of knowledge in say, Economics.

Science also gets that hatch: "The Science Trait covers a rudimentary understanding of common principles, plus a given focus of specialization."

That is three dots someone who can make a good living doing whatever they are doing and four dots is someone who is really skilled at it, five dots are one of the best in the region.

I'd personally say five-dot was 'one of the best in the country or even continent'. If nothing else, only a very, very few people know 'almost everything there is to know' about any subject, and there's pretty much no way up from there in sheet terms.

The way I have always read this is that it is like with the second ed skill music where you do have to choose instruments, this is also what makes the most sense. I can make jewelry well enough to sell them. I would have two dots or so in that, it do not mean that I can make a chair, or blow glass that is just not how learning to make things work in real life. Craft is like with Music or Lore.

I agree. I would say your 'two-dots' in Craft represents the level where you'd make a fair 'jeweller's assistant' in a professional concern - you could work on the routine bits [say polishing] while your senior [three-dots] does the fiddly bits.

Another thing we need to remember that when it comes to a 'senior craftsperson' it's not just Crafts. Colin will need good design skills [Art] as a jeweller, while Nicole would need similar in Technology [for the chips/circuits etc] and a smattering in Science [working out fuel mixes, torque etc] to become a 'senior' auto mechanic. And to extrapolate for Academics, Adley would need good Expression skills to be able to correctly and lucidly state his wisdom on the subject.

As for academics well yes and now you have some general academics, if you have academics 2 that would normally just mean your character have a formal education but beyond that while you might not have to choose I would assume that a mathematician is not as good of a geologist as an actual geologist though that is more handled through roleplay than what is written on the sheet.

A Crafts skill can be similar - such as the 'odd job man' who's a basic generalist with metal, wood, glass, repair and so on. I went through basic 'Design and Technology' at school, which could be called 'Crafts 1' - in that I learned the basics of a forge [metal], vacuum-formers [plastic], a lathe [wood] and so on. Some fields also have some overlap - for example, 'automotive' would imply a familiarity with the said tools in that workshop, and Nick wouldn't be completely at sea if she went into say a carpentry shop as while the medium [wood] is different, many of the tools/techniques are similar. This could also be said if Colin visited Nicole at work [or vice-versa] - they'd be able to correctly ID 75% of the tools they see there, and some of their skills are 'transferable'.

I think the well skilled craftsman option is a good idea to use, it allow for less things to write up.

The fundamental problem with that rule is basically means a Craft skill is either 0 or 4 [or 5!]. And we have to remember that it can take decades for someone to say become a master [RL] goldsmith. Just imagine it; Nicole using her Craft skill with cars to suddenly become adept at making stained glass windows, or Colin using his silversmithing to suddenly become a tailor good enough for Saville Row. Or to annoy each other, Colin suddenly becomes a master mechanic and Nick a master silversmith...

It is not a house rule it is in the books. Yes Colin's craft skill only apply to silversmithing, when he want to learn to work with glass as he have expressed a desire to he have to buy new specializations for that, he also can not knit a sweater.

I've found the issue, Great One. I've already 'admitted' that I came to MtA via VtM and I learned the 'basics' - such as what the Abilities etc do from that. And this is VtM's 'Craft' entry...

'...You must always choose a specialization in Crafts, even though you retain some skill in multiple fields.' [WtA sits on the fence here].

In short, while VtM had the 'escape hatch' for Science/Academics/Crafts, it appears that it's been removed from Crafts [and only Crafts] in MtA. I didn't bother re-reading all the blurbs etc for every Ability that were present in other 4th cores, believing them to be identical. Therefore, me bad.

Partly this objection is purely personal - I can now see Crafts being a massive XP-pit for Nicole [and perhaps Colin too] and I may need to do a bit of retconning on Nick to take account of this. But I also feel it's unfair that Academics and Science kept their 'hatches', while Crafts didn't.

Therefore, while I'd personally prefer the 'hatch' to be reinstated, I will settle if the hatches for Science, Academics etc are removed, to bring them in line with Crafts. I'll still feel that this is a bit unfair, but at least I'll know it's equally unfair - that Adley will have to spend the same XP etc for 'History' as Nicole would for 'Gunsmithing'...[/i]

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

Oh, but Academics gets an escape hatch! "Even outside that specialty, however, your Academics rating reflects your general competence for scholastic subjects."

Now, while Adley's Academics [Linguistics] might offer a bit in say history, sociology and perhaps even a smattering of theology, no way does his Masters in the subject also grant nearly the same level of knowledge in say, Economics.

Science also gets that hatch: "The Science Trait covers a rudimentary understanding of common principles, plus a given focus of specialization."

Academics are not exempt from this. If there is no specialization I assume the character has had a regular education and know the things such an education will bring, so if you have Academics 2 you have gone through high school, or if not that you have taught yourself up to high school level. However if someone have Academics 5 as an mathematician for example they might have some knowledge in other fields as well but they will not be a master of archeology. The same with science. Anton Von Hess is a chemist, he would not know how to build a computer, however much of those is done in roleplay and in flavoring not on paper. The same with magick. Jeffry and Cita have the same rank in Spirit, but Cita can not manipulate and work with realm building and Umbroods the same way Jeffry can and he can not heal Avatars, they have focused on different areas.

I'd personally say five-dot was 'one of the best in the country or even continent'. If nothing else, only a very, very few people know 'almost everything there is to know' about any subject, and there's pretty much no way up from there in sheet terms.

That is the problem with a five tier system it do not allow for very gradual increases, and for Crafts the books say that 5 is master, a master craftsman have 5 dots in his given craft.

I agree. I would say your 'two-dots' in Craft represents the level where you'd make a fair 'jeweller's assistant' in a professional concern - you could work on the routine bits [say polishing] while your senior [three-dots] does the fiddly bits.

Yes 2 is a skilled amateur, most who have a etsy store is at this level and yes someone with 2 in a skill might be able to work as an assistant.

Another thing we need to remember that when it comes to a 'senior craftsperson' it's not just Crafts. Colin will need good design skills [Art] as a jeweller, while Nicole would need similar in Technology [for the chips/circuits etc] and a smattering in Science [working out fuel mixes, torque etc] to become a 'senior' auto mechanic. And to extrapolate for Academics, Adley would need good Expression skills to be able to correctly and lucidly state his wisdom on the subject.

Well it go under expression but yes he do have those skills. For Nicole I would say the ability to design is baked into her Technolgy skill. What you have to accept is that the storyteller system is not a very precise system, it is not after putting every little bitty thing into a skill. We are not playing Runequest or Cyberpunk and no one but you seam to have a problem with this. No one but you have a problem with Colin getting Craft 4 and I am wondering why I have to spend hours debating this which really is quite irrelevant, and no one have a issue with. Colin is a professional Craftsman, no one in the entire game is more justified in getting a skill raised than Colin is his Crafts skill, it is both is his background and it have been a part of the roleplay allot of times. No one is looking for putting every little bitty thing into a system, the Storyteller system was never meant for it, what is do is give a general idea of what a character can do combined with their background.

A Crafts skill can be similar - such as the 'odd job man' who's a basic generalist with metal, wood, glass, repair and so on. I went through basic 'Design and Technology' at school, which could be called 'Crafts 1' - in that I learned the basics of a forge [metal], vacuum-formers [plastic], a lathe [wood] and so on. Some fields also have some overlap - for example, 'automotive' would imply a familiarity with the said tools in that workshop, and Nick wouldn't be completely at sea if she went into say a carpentry shop as while the medium [wood] is different, many of the tools/techniques are similar. This could also be said if Colin visited Nicole at work [or vice-versa] - they'd be able to correctly ID 75% of the tools they see there, and some of their skills are 'transferable'.

And this is where ST's discretion comes into play, if someone can sew and they want to start doing leathercraft I would make it allot cheaper to buy up the new skill. If you know how to make furniture making a computer housing out of metal is not that much harder so I might let the character roll on it with a diff increase. Like I said the system is not precise, it do not need to be but it have to be within reason.

The fundamental problem with that rule is basically means a Craft skill is either 0 or 4 [or 5!]. And we have to remember that it can take decades for someone to say become a master [RL] goldsmith. Just imagine it; Nicole using her Craft skill with cars to suddenly become adept at making stained glass windows, or Colin using his silversmithing to suddenly become a tailor good enough for Saville Row. Or to annoy each other, Colin suddenly becomes a master mechanic and Nick a master silversmith...

This is so for every skill, realistically pepole do not learn anything as fast as characters do but it is not completely outside the realm of possibility. And like I said Nicole can not use her Craft skill with cars and then make stained glass windows, she have no idea about how to do that. And Colin can not use his Craft skill to make clothing, this have been said again and again in this thread. I do not see why this is brought up again. That is WHY you choose each Craft skill seperatly, it is like Lore, if you have Vampire Lore do not mean you know anything about Fay, the same with Crafts.

've found the issue, Great One. I've already 'admitted' that I came to MtA via VtM and I learned the 'basics' - such as what the Abilities etc do from that. And this is VtM's 'Craft' entry...

'...You must always choose a specialization in Crafts, even though you retain some skill in multiple fields.' [WtA sits on the fence here].

This seam to me to be exactly the same as we are saying. This is the same as with Linguestics. If the group come across a inscription in oh Icelandic, Adley can not read it but since he know so much about languages generally he can roll his linguestics skill to figure out what language it is and some elements about it. The same if I where to try to make oh a flower decoration, I do know a bit about what colors fit together so I might have a leg up on someone who have never done anything creative before but that do not mean I will know how to do it.

In short, while VtM had the 'escape hatch' for Science/Academics/Crafts, it appears that it's been removed from Crafts [and only Crafts] in MtA. I didn't bother re-reading all the blurbs etc for every Ability that were present in other 4th cores, believing them to be identical. Therefore, me bad.

I do not see how the vampire one is any different it also say you must choose a specialization in Crafts.

Partly this objection is purely personal - I can now see Crafts being a massive XP-pit for Nicole [and perhaps Colin too] and I may need to do a bit of retconning on Nick to take account of this. But I also feel it's unfair that Academics and Science kept their 'hatches', while Crafts didn't.

Therefore, while I'd personally prefer the 'hatch' to be reinstated, I will settle if the hatches for Science, Academics etc are removed, to bring them in line with Crafts. I'll still feel that this is a bit unfair, but at least I'll know it's equally unfair - that Adley will have to spend the same XP etc for 'History' as Nicole would for 'Gunsmithing'...[/i]

Academics do not have any hatches, but they can both indicate a person's general degree of education and on higher levels someone who is specialized it is just assumed players will stay in character and not try to min max this and will actually get that their mathematician is not a historian.

[Nicole Bouchard]

That is the problem with a five tier system it do not allow for very gradual increases, and for Crafts the books say that 5 is master, a master craftsman have 5 dots in his given craft.

Think we slipped into an argument of semantics, Great One. When I said 'master craftsperson' I was referring to what say artisan 'guilds' would call as such, not 'Master craftsperson' which is five-dots.

Yes 2 is a skilled amateur, most who have a etsy store is at this level and yes someone with 2 in a skill might be able to work as an assistant.

We agree to agree. I'd personally term 2-dot as 'semi-professional' - either a skilled amateur or an trainee/apprentice professional.

Well it go under expression but yes he do have those skills. For Nicole I would say the ability to design is baked into her Technolgy skill. What you have to accept is that the storyteller system is not a very precise system, it is not after putting every little bitty thing into a skill. We are not playing Runequest or Cyberpunk and no one but you seam to have a problem with this. No one but you have a problem with Colin getting Craft 4 and I am wondering why I have to spend hours debating this which really is quite irrelevant, and no one have a issue with. Colin is a professional Craftsman, no one in the entire game is more justified in getting a skill raised than Colin is his Crafts skill, it is both is his background and it have been a part of the roleplay allot of times. No one is looking for putting every little bitty thing into a system, the Storyteller system was never meant for it, what is do is give a general idea of what a character can do combined with their background.

First off, I don't 'have a problem' in regards to Colin getting Crafts 4. What my rather innocuous question revealed was what I assumed to be 'Crafts' [from VtM/WtA] is actually rather different to what is 'Crafts' in M20. That was what I was under the impression this discussion had moved on to. Like the time when we discussed paradigms, this is more a 'trying to find out where your head is at' on the subject, not an attempt at strong-arming or complaint. Not only does this directly relate to my own char, but it also is of 'general interest' for it's interesting to see how another ST handles this.

This is so for every skill, realistically pepole do not learn anything as fast as characters do but it is not completely outside the realm of possibility. And like I said Nicole can not use her Craft skill with cars and then make stained glass windows, she have no idea about how to do that. And Colin can not use his Craft skill to make clothing, this have been said again and again in this thread. I do not see why this is brought up again. That is WHY you choose each Craft skill seperatly, it is like Lore, if you have Vampire Lore do not mean you know anything about Fay, the same with Crafts.

Yes, it's been said repeatedly. Which is why I did not ask that - it's rude to re-ask the same question, and I do try not to be rude [though I fail at times... which I apologise in advance for!]. Let me explain...

'Bob' is an Expert carpenter [4-dot, with 'Carpentry' speciality]. Then by using the 'Well-Skilled Craftsman' optional rule, TPO Bob buys a second speciality - let's say 'glassmaking'. Seemingly by magic(k), he's become an Expert glassmaker. That mechanically, his skill went from 0 to 4 without any stopping on 1, 2 or 3.

This seam to me to be exactly the same as we are saying. This is the same as with Linguestics. If the group come across a inscription in oh Icelandic, Adley can not read it but since he know so much about languages generally he can roll his linguestics skill to figure out what language it is and some elements about it. The same if I where to try to make oh a flower decoration, I do know a bit about what colors fit together so I might have a leg up on someone who have never done anything creative before but that do not mean I will know how to do it.

Academics do not have any hatches, but they can both indicate a person's general degree of education and on higher levels someone who is specialized it is just assumed players will stay in character and not try to min max this and will actually get that their mathematician is not a historian.

With all respect, it is not the same. The point is not about 'you must pick Speciality', but '...general understanding' which is mentioned in the blurb afterwards.

As you rightly say, M20 Academics is 'general level of education', just like Science is. Adley's four-dots in Academics will generally assume he's got a fair grounding in theology, geography, history, sociology and so on. That if Adley 'doesn't know a thing' about say English Literature, that's an RPing decision, not a mechanics one. But his one four dots in Academics allows Strife to play Adley as a erudite character who'd say recognise Tennyson quotes, differentiate between Beethoven and Mendelssohn, know that Oslo was once called Christiania, spot 'I am the state' is a misattribution to Louis XIV and so on.

M20 Art and Crafts does not have this. As Strife correctly pointed out earlier, that if Serge wanted to make a sculpture or if Nicole wanted to do dressmaking, they are on '0' regardless of their current Art/Craft skill for it is not their Speciality. That Nicole will have to shrug and say 'dunno' to any crafty thing outside 'of her remit' until she gets that Speciality. And so on.

This is what I call 'the escape hatch'. That Academics etc allows a character to 'climb through it' and use a non-specialist Academics when needed; so allowing TPO Adley to avoid spending c15 XP in buying 'Academics 2 [History], Academics 1 [Geography]' and so on to give that know-it-all persona which winds up Nicole so. *smirks*

VtM Crafts came with this 'escape hatch' - I got confused for I assumed MtA was identical in this regard, but was proven incorrect.

If we follow said rules to the letter, the logical conclusion is this; that a multi-skilled craftsperson or artist will cost a hell of a lot more in XP than the genius multi-disciplinary scientist or scarily learned humanities scholar - simply because the former will have to purchase c20 dots in Arts/Crafts while the latter only needs to get five. 'Well-Skilled...' helps to close this yawning gap, but not completely - for Academics etc still has the 'escape hatch'.

I am doing here the most anal, rigid rules-lawyer position merely as an example - I am not saying 'this is what you do', you've been way more flexible on stuff like this. Nor am I picking a fight with you either - you didn't write these rules!

I'm doing it this way to point out the inconsistencies in the stated rules, and the 'perverse incentives' that it provides. Now while I am not some min-maxer, even I will notice that throwing say a year's worth of XP into say many many Crafts means said character would end up weaker in all other areas for minimal IC benefit.

[Adley]

I've found the issue, Great One. I've already 'admitted' that I came to MtA via VtM and I learned the 'basics' - such as what the Abilities etc do from that. And this is VtM's 'Craft' entry... '...You must always choose a specialization in Crafts, even though you retain some skill in multiple fields.' [WtA sits on the fence here]. In short, while VtM had the 'escape hatch' for Science/Academics/Crafts, it appears that it's been removed from Crafts [and only Crafts] in MtA. I didn't bother re-reading all the blurbs etc for every Ability that were present in other 4th cores, believing them to be identical. Therefore, me bad. Partly this objection is purely personal - I can now see Crafts being a massive XP-pit for Nicole [and perhaps Colin too] and I may need to do a bit of retconning on Nick to take account of this. But I also feel it's unfair that Academics and Science kept their 'hatches', while Crafts didn't. Therefore, while I'd personally prefer the 'hatch' to be reinstated, I will settle if the hatches for Science, Academics etc are removed, to bring them in line with Crafts. I'll still feel that this is a bit unfair, but at least I'll know it's equally unfair - that Adley will have to spend the same XP etc for 'History' as Nicole would for 'Gunsmithing'...[/i]

I think the reason crafts and other skills and knowledge are different in Mage is in part due to the fact that they are often entwined with the magick - used as tools/foci or to lower diffiulties and mages tend to have a lot of experiences and knowledge, some overlap to other book systems and some don't seem to do that. All WoD does this to a certain extent even the M20 systems which work a lot better with one another than they used to - they are still assuming that you will use one 'main line' as a reference. Those that have done multi-splats have generally made their own rules adjustments and import what they want to use. Mages are supposed to know things, they are searching the universe for their truths. It also prevents mages from knowing SO MANY things that it's too much either. So, no, the hatches and limits are there under specific entries for a reason or the entries would have been different.

As for academics well yes and now you have some general academics, if you have academics 2 that would normally just mean your character have a formal education but beyond that while you might not have to choose I would assume that a mathematician is not as good of a geologist as an actual geologist though that is more handled through roleplay than what is written on the sheet.

Oh, but Academics gets an escape hatch! "Even outside that specialty, however, your Academics rating reflects your general competence for scholastic subjects."

Science also gets that hatch: "The Science Trait covers a rudimentary understanding of common principles, plus a given focus of specialization."

This makes more sense in that at a basic level you will have the same basic education, varying by rp and locale, until you take college upper divisions or go to university. This is why I play Adley as not having the science chops to understand some of the biology stuff at anything more than 'the heart is over here' but he has more general knowledge of literature (arts and science tracks are usually pretty different, even if you can take some psyche or history etc with linguistics and languages). He is not going to understand how econ works and I wouldn't play it that way. Likewise, Adley's occult is western occult systems,  including hermetic - which also had taken some stuff from eastern mysticism like tantra, chakras etc. He doesn't know it the way Narim does. Some of it you nail down by rp because it's not always going to match perfect in dots.

Another thing we need to remember that when it comes to a 'senior craftsperson' it's not just Crafts. Colin will need good design skills [Art] as a jeweller, while Nicole would need similar in Technology [for the chips/circuits etc] and a smattering in Science [working out fuel mixes, torque etc] to become a 'senior' auto mechanic. And to extrapolate for Academics, Adley would need good Expression skills to be able to correctly and lucidly state his wisdom on the subject.

He has expression - though at this point I could dump a few more in there with all the discussions he's had to do : )

A Crafts skill can be similar - such as the 'odd job man' who's a basic generalist with metal, wood, glass, repair and so on. I went through basic 'Design and Technology' at school, which could be called 'Crafts 1' - in that I learned the basics of a forge [metal], vacuum-formers [plastic], a lathe [wood] and so on. Some fields also have some overlap - for example, 'automotive' would imply a familiarity with the said tools in that workshop, and Nick wouldn't be completely at sea if she went into say a carpentry shop as while the medium [wood] is different, many of the tools/techniques are similar. This could also be said if Colin visited Nicole at work [or vice-versa] - they'd be able to correctly ID 75% of the tools they see there, and some of their skills are 'transferable'.

This is why the M20 made Well Trained Craftsman, which Anja said we can use.

The fundamental problem with that rule is basically means a Craft skill is either 0 or 4 [or 5!]. And we have to remember that it can take decades for someone to say become a master [RL] goldsmith. Just imagine it; Nicole using her Craft skill with cars to suddenly become adept at making stained glass windows, or Colin using his silversmithing to suddenly become a tailor good enough for Saville Row. Or to annoy each other, Colin suddenly becomes a master mechanic and Nick a master silversmith...

That's why it's up to the GM - Colin didn't suddenly become a level 4, he's been rping it in game as well as he's older as a character, and etc.  No one is suddenly going to be allowed to be a sheep wool shearing expert unless they have some sheep and spend time on it. There's nothing to worry about here.

[Nicole Bouchard]

This is why the M20 made Well Trained Craftsman, which Anja said we can use...

...That's why it's up to the GM - Colin didn't suddenly become a level 4, he's been rping it in game as well as he's older as a character, and etc.  No one is suddenly going to be allowed to be a sheep wool shearing expert unless they have some sheep and spend time on it. There's nothing to worry about here.

I point back to my 'Bob' example in my previous post. Plus, I kinda left the point of 'Colin the Silversmith' some time ago - it was a query based on what turned to be an incorrect assumption [which you pointed out].

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

Think we slipped into an argument of semantics, Great One. When I said 'master craftsperson' I was referring to what say artisan 'guilds' would call as such, not 'Master craftsperson' which is five-dots.

In either case getting to four dots with practice is not a problem. There is no reason why Colin can not buy Craft 4.

We agree to agree. I'd personally term 2-dot as 'semi-professional' - either a skilled amateur or an trainee/apprentice professional.

Even so 3 is still someone who have enough still to be a professional at something and do this for a living.

First off, I don't 'have a problem' in regards to Colin getting Crafts 4. What my rather innocuous question revealed was what I assumed to be 'Crafts' [from VtM/WtA] is actually rather different to what is 'Crafts' in M20. That was what I was under the impression this discussion had moved on to. Like the time when we discussed paradigms, this is more a 'trying to find out where your head is at' on the subject, not an attempt at strong-arming or complaint. Not only does this directly relate to my own char, but it also is of 'general interest' for it's interesting to see how another ST handles this.

VTM and WtA Crafts are exactly the same, you still have to pick a specialty and that is what your Craft skill give you it is both pointed out and is also the only thing that makes sense.

Yes, it's been said repeatedly. Which is why I did not ask that - it's rude to re-ask the same question, and I do try not to be rude [though I fail at times... which I apologise in advance for!]. Let me explain...

'Bob' is an Expert carpenter [4-dot, with 'Carpentry' speciality]. Then by using the 'Well-Skilled Craftsman' optional rule, TPO Bob buys a second speciality - let's say 'glassmaking'. Seemingly by magic(k), he's become an Expert glassmaker. That mechanically, his skill went from 0 to 4 without any stopping on 1, 2 or 3.

Well if an answer have not been understood it is fine to ask it again:

No Bob will have to start at one for glassmaking. Like I said me myself would probably have:

Crafts: Beadcraft 2
Craft: Soap making 1
Craft: Handcraft 1

Just like with Lore you buy it several times so for example Kristina have:

Vampire Lore: 4
Werewolf Lore: 3
Mage Lore: 3
Fairy Lore: 1

With all respect, it is not the same. The point is not about 'you must pick Speciality', but '...general understanding' which is mentioned in the blurb afterwards.

To me it seam to be exactly the same thing, and it is also the only thing that makes sense since knowing how to knit do not make you good and glass blowing it just do not.

As you rightly say, M20 Academics is 'general level of education', just like Science is. Adley's four-dots in Academics will generally assume he's got a fair grounding in theology, geography, history, sociology and so on. That if Adley 'doesn't know a thing' about say English Literature, that's an RPing decision, not a mechanics one. But his one four dots in Academics allows Strife to play Adley as a erudite character who'd say recognise Tennyson quotes, differentiate between Beethoven and Mendelssohn, know that Oslo was once called Christiania, spot 'I am the state' is a misattribution to Louis XIV and so on.

Yes that is what having a general education mean yes. That is things you learn at school and later collage or university so that seams quite fair.

M20 Art and Crafts does not have this. As Strife correctly pointed out earlier, that if Serge wanted to make a sculpture or if Nicole wanted to do dressmaking, they are on '0' regardless of their current Art/Craft skill for it is not their Speciality. That Nicole will have to shrug and say 'dunno' to any crafty thing outside 'of her remit' until she gets that Speciality. And so on.

This is exactly right and makes sense since when learning a craft you do not learn to make all the things, you learn to make one thing. When I go to sewing class to learn to sew, I do not learn to blow glass simple as that but when I was in school I learned mathematics, Norwegian grammar, English literature chemistry the list went on. The two are not the same.

This is what I call 'the escape hatch'. That Academics etc allows a character to 'climb through it' and use a non-specialist Academics when needed; so allowing TPO Adley to avoid spending c15 XP in buying 'Academics 2 [History], Academics 1 [Geography]' and so on to give that know-it-all persona which winds up Nicole so. *smirks*

There is no escape hatch. This is reasonable. In school you learn a general competency in many different things when learning a craft you learn that specific craft simple as that.

VtM Crafts came with this 'escape hatch' - I got confused for I assumed MtA was identical in this regard, but was proven incorrect.

No it did not, you had to buy a specialization for that craft just as with lore and then buy it again for each specialization. No one can make all the things.

If we follow said rules to the letter, the logical conclusion is this; that a multi-skilled craftsperson or artist will cost a hell of a lot more in XP than the genius multi-disciplinary scientist or scarily learned humanities scholar - simply because the former will have to purchase c20 dots in Arts/Crafts while the latter only needs to get five. 'Well-Skilled...' helps to close this yawning gap, but not completely - for Academics etc still has the 'escape hatch'.

Not really since the scientist or academic would buy specializations for their chosen fields or it is general education. Adley have Academics but have also spent allot of points on Linguistics and secondary skills.

We are not changing this.

I am doing here the most anal, rigid rules-lawyer position merely as an example - I am not saying 'this is what you do', you've been way more flexible on stuff like this. Nor am I picking a fight with you either - you didn't write these rules!

As I said WoD is not an exact system it have never been we are not playing Runequest. It is not a system that works well for rules lawyering, and I do not do that, the system can however give a good indication of a character's abilities along with their background and how they are roleplayed.

I'm doing it this way to point out the inconsistencies in the stated rules, and the 'perverse incentives' that it provides. Now while I am not some min-maxer, even I will notice that throwing say a year's worth of XP into say many many Crafts means said character would end up weaker in all other areas for minimal IC benefit.

Strife have sunk allot of points into many, many different Academics skills it is not like Adley have academics and that is it. And I am saying again no one can make all the things, learning to make paper mache flowers will not help you to make soap.

This makes more sense in that at a basic level you will have the same basic education, varying by rp and locale, until you take college upper divisions or go to university. This is why I play Adley as not having the science chops to understand some of the biology stuff at anything more than 'the heart is over here' but he has more general knowledge of literature (arts and science tracks are usually pretty different, even if you can take some psyche or history etc with linguistics and languages). He is not going to understand how econ works and I wouldn't play it that way. Likewise, Adley's occult is western occult systems, including hermetic - which also had taken some stuff from eastern mysticism like tantra, chakras etc. He doesn't know it the way Narim does. Some of it you nail down by rp because it's not always going to match perfect in dots.

Yes exactly and it is like this if I where in WoD I would have a decent Occult score, but when a gentleman wrote me a few days ago about advice concerning the use of West African herbs, I had tell him that I know nothing about that what so ever. WoD do not have allot of skills this is made up for by trusting the players and assuming they will use what it would be appropriate for them to know.

This is why the M20 made Well Trained Craftsman, which Anja said we can use.

Indeed.

That's why it's up to the GM - Colin didn't suddenly become a level 4, he's been rping it in game as well as he's older as a character, and etc. No one is suddenly going to be allowed to be a sheep wool shearing expert unless they have some sheep. There's nothing to worry about here.

Exactly I am generally rather liberal at this, there have to be justification for a character gaining a new skill, especially higher ones but I am not nazi about it, if you use it that is fine, if you practice it and if the skill come to good use in game and are part of the roleplay then it makes even grater sense.

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

Some thing might be easier to learn due to what you already know, if Adley wanted to learnItalian for example I would lover the exp cost due to him knowing Latin. I am also happy to smash relating crafts together for example I would be happy with someone having Handicrafts rather than sewing, knitting, embroidery and so on. But it have to be somewhat related. For Adley it would be making ritual stuff which is a fair enough category.

[Warpmind]

Yeah, to chip in here, as I pointed out in the IC thread, Colin's been at 3 dots for about 15 years, or so I figure (taking a decade, tops, to get to that point after finishing military service). And he is using magic subtly to aid with precision, the insights of Correspondence 2 and now Forces 2 going to add to the precision and finer points of his work, easily justifying that he'll be more easily able to consistently make Expert-level silverwork. So going to Crafts 4 is as much a matter of having honed his mundane craft as finding magical shortcuts, to the point where a sleeper wouldn't think it was magical work involved anyway. Actual Master rank will still be, say, another decade or two of doing custom silverwork as his primary line of work away.

And also, I did state my intent to direct the next load of XP toward that skill well in advance, so our ST could approve/disapprove of it if necessary; comparatively, Colin's maintained his helicopter piloting skills and licensing in downtime, but there's no justification for pushing that up to 5, all the same.

As for Adley's Academics skill - if I recall correctly, that skill doesn't just cover merely academic knowledge, in the sense of the subjects of a general or higher and more specific education, but also the professional network and bureaucratic training within academia, as well. In the sense of knowing which school staff to ask to order in a certain textbook, whose palm to grease to get approval for a class excursion, et cetera.

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