The OOC Discussion Thread

[Nicole Bouchard]

Thought it best to start off a proper OOC thread for the discussions.

I respectfully disagree, Great One.

I have put the library as a one dot since it is a private collection they generally do not have several copies of most of the books, this is not a public library it is a private collection owned by the Chantry and it is shared by over 30 mages so what you need for your studies at any given time might not be available, it is a decent library but it is shared and so it is a one dot.

If the majority of users don't remove the books, your argument not relevant. They are still there to use. Nor would everyone remove them at the same time.

Here is the thing by the background descriptions everyone, and I mean everyone would have at leat 30 dots of Backgrounds. I mean to have even a single friend, spend background points, to have some contact with others like for example a gaming group that are points in Backgrounds even the poorest, most shut in person would have way, way to many points. Now for a vampire int he 90's with no internet and a lifestyle where one often avoided lasting cotnact and lived hand to mouth this makes sense it do not make sesne for a make in the 2000 and beyond.

No they wouldn't. Take 'Contacts' for example. Your 90 year-old vampire may have no 'Contacts' but still be in contact with people every night. They merely do not know anyone really useful more than an everyday person. It is why, for example Nick has not taken her Uncle as a Contact even though she is in contact with him; for he can not really offer anything 'special'. [Though if you were to make *his* sheet, chances are Nick would be one of his 'Contacts'.]

Library 1 means there is a decent library ehre but often what you look for have been loanded out you have to share and so the bonus it give to how much exp you use buying new Spheres and such are limited.

Does this also apply to others who have personal Library 1s? And what does a Library 3 look like when it's at home?

Like I said the background desciptions makes no sense and so I use them as an indication of your characters backgrounds and resources. For example Contacts where relaly anyone by the description would have 4 or 5 in contacts. I say yes even without bying allies or contacts your character have friends and aquintences but they might not have allot of friends that can be useful out of the ordinary.

I agree. So, the Chantry library has lots of content within it which is 'filler' / poor translations / duplicates, then? It more looks impressive than it actually is when you sort through it?

Also even in the book flaws with your resource give a lower rating, you can have Mentor 1 and have a really respected and powerful Mentor if that Mentor never have time for you, and here we have a good library but it is shared between 30 mages and so it only give the effect of a small library on reducting exp cost as you often have to wait for the books you need.

I don't understand. It's either a 'good library' [meaning more dots] or it more appears to be good library. [Or somewhere in between].

The only other solution I can think of is to grant the number of dots a 'good library' would really have, but then increase the difficulty in searches in it as it's unfamiliar, disorganised and with gaps in it's collection.

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

If the majority of users don't remove the books, your argument not relevant. They are still there to use. Nor would everyone remove them at the same time.

Yes it is having to wait for the information you need to continue your studies are nto as effective as having everything at your fingertips when you need it. Most borrow books to read in their rooms so no the books are nto all in the library at the same time.

No they wouldn't. Take 'Contacts' for example. Your 90 year-old vampire may have no 'Contacts' but still be in contact with people every night. They merely do not know anyone really useful more than an everyday person. It is why, for example Nick has not taken her Uncle as a Contact even though she is in contact with him; for he can not really offer anything 'special'. [Though if you were to make *his* sheet, chances are Nick would be one of his 'Contacts'.]

Indeed your character know someone who in the strictest by the description of the Contacts background should be a contact, because those descriptions do nto work.

Does this also apply to others who have personal Library 1s? And what does a Library 3 look like when it's at home?

The library rating show how useful your library is to your studies so yes it do. Library 3 would even be allot of fairly common books or a handful of very reare and very useful books or a bit of a combination. I for example have a personal collection of I am not sure actually between 6 and 10 000 books that migth make for a Library 3 rating.

I agree. So, the Chantry library has lots of content within it which is 'filler' / poor translations / duplicates, then? It more looks impressive than it actually is when you sort through it?

It do nto try to look impressive. The library do not have allot of duplicates but no not all of the books are top shelf, Steelhaven is nto a super rich Chantry as I say it buy some books but most are gifts from member or gotten in trades.

I don't understand. It's either a 'good library' [meaning more dots] or it more appears to be good library. [Or somewhere in between].

Ok let me try to make you understand it this way, having a decent apartment and a car indicare Resources 2, if that car is shared with seven others and your house is a collective where all you have that is yours is one small room is not Resources 2. The library is good but it is shared with over 30 tohers and so it do nto count as the same rating it would if it was your library alone.

The only other solution I can think of is to grant the number of dots a 'good library' would really have, but then increase the difficulty in searches in it as it's unfamiliar, disorganised and with gaps in it's collection.

No it is the same as Narim have Mentor of 1, his Mentor is Dante but Dante have several dozen apprentices and former apprentices so Narim's ability to call on his Mentor is very limited, if he was Dante's only apprnetice or one of a small handful his Mentor rating would be 5. If someone had Steelhaven's Library alone it would be a high rating but as you share it with 30 others it is only 1. What is the problem here?

[Nicole Bouchard]

Yes it is having to wait for the information you need to continue your studies are nto as effective as having everything at your fingertips when you need it. Most borrow books to read in their rooms so no the books are nto all in the library at the same time.

How would a person know a book they have not seen before is missing from the collection? The only way this can be so is if the collection is very well organised and there is a clear space for it on the designated shelf. Or there's a complete record of the contents.

Indeed your character know someone who in the strictest by the description of the Contacts background should be a contact, because those descriptions do nto work.

MTA 4th description of 'Contacts' is one of the poorer ones; the VtM and WtA ones are more beefed-up; making it clear the contact/Contact divide that we both agree on.

The library rating show how useful your library is to your studies so yes it do. Library 3 would even be allot of fairly common books or a handful of very reare and very useful books or a bit of a combination. I for example have a personal collection of I am not sure actually between 6 and 10 000 books that migth make for a Library 3 rating.

So, by this logic, the Chantry library isn't that useful, then?

It do nto try to look impressive. The library do not have allot of duplicates but no not all of the books are top shelf, Steelhaven is nto a super rich Chantry as I say it buy some books but most are gifts from member or gotten in trades.

When the average Briton owns around ~110 books [apparently], the sight of a thousand or two all in the same place can be impressive even without trying to be. Even books which are filled with trash 'look' impressive to a person who doesn't know that say, Mills & Boon are not publishers of the greatest renown.

Ok let me try to make you understand it this way, having a decent apartment and a car indicare Resources 2, if that car is shared with seven others and your house is a collective where all you have that is yours is one small room is not Resources 2. The library is good but it is shared with over 30 tohers and so it do nto count as the same rating it would if it was your library alone.

No it is the same as Narim have Mentor of 1, his Mentor is Dante but Dante have several dozen apprentices and former apprentices so Narim's ability to call on his Mentor is very limited, if he was Dante's only apprnetice or one of a small handful his Mentor rating would be 5. If someone had Steelhaven's Library alone it would be a high rating but as you share it with 30 others it is only 1. What is the problem here?

Because people don't all try to access the same books at the same time?

Books are not like bedrooms, or a Mentors time. It's not a simple case of used/not used. When you have say, a thousand books in a library [so 10 'standard' 6 ft tall shelves] even if all thirty people have currently borrowed 5 books each, this leaves 850 books on the shelves. [Some people will have more, but others less or none. So it evens out].

Therefore, if the 'borrowing' has reduced the value of the remaining 850 books to just one dot, well this suggests the remaining collection is of very little magickal worth.

The options are;

#1: The thirty have managed to cherry-pick the best tomes out of the collection and has caused the 'value' of the remaining books to plummet.

#2: The thirty's book choices were of the same 'value' as the rest of the collection. This means that even if all the books were returned, the whole collection would still be worth one-dot.

#3: The collection is in fact rather small, meaning the c150 currently on loan is a heavy % of it's current stock. 5 shelves [~500] would mean that on average, 30% of the collection was 'out' at any one time.

[Warpmind]

I figure it's more simply a function of unreliability.

That specific book you need might be out when you need it, forcing you to have to look elsewhere - a major impediment if you've got to go through a lot of material on a subject, and the crucial text that could've saved you a lot of work is on a Deacon's table at the moment.

So, Steelhaven Hall might have a three-dot library if it had 100% guarantee the books would be on the shelves at all times, but that degree of unpredictability pulls it down a couple of dots.

Imagine you have a few thousand books on closely related subjects, but they don't reference one another. Then you've got a few hundred books that cross-reference ten of those books each, for a better and more complete picture. Then you've got the Big Book that actually sums it all up with cross-references and good annotations and everything, but you only have one copy of that... odds are, that one big book is going to be in use, and you have to go through a lot more books, essentially duplicating a lot of the referential work, on account of someone else having checked out the big one. That's why the Steelhaven Library is at a lower rating when it's for collective use, and not private.

[Nicole Bouchard]

If two-thirds of the collection's value falls due to the loss of say 10% - 15% of it's books, well that means the vast majority of the collection has little or no mystical worth.

I'm perfectly happy to have this situation at Steelhaven - representing the fact much of the collection is assembled from discards from personal collections [perhaps the 10% - 20% of 'good stuff' being the ones bought special, much of it always on loan] - but you cannot have a large collection 'full of worth' but also be one-dot, even with the 'tomes on loan' issue.

It's either rather full of low-grade materiel or it's not very big or it's more than one dot.

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

Basically my reply is Warp's post here, now you may not agree Nicole but I do not have time to discuss a point like this up and down forever. My ruling as the GM is that while the Chantry have a good library it only count as a 1 dot for the members as the books might be rented out or in use, when you share a library with others you do not get the full benefit of it simple as that. Now you two are welcome to discuss the matter of course but I think I will be signing of this thread. Everyone get a 1 dot of free Library from living at Steelhaven, the reason ahve been stated by both me and Warp clearly enough.

[Nicole Bouchard]

There is no point in 'discussing' something when the ST is not even part of that discussion. I have better things to do with my time than pointless theorising which won't change anything at all.

I respect your decision, but feel it does not make sense logically. It appears that the Chantry, in fact has a library which is worth less than the sum of it's parts.

Plus, I'm not really bothered, as it's an issue which doesn't affect Nick at all.

[Warpmind]

It's not that the library is worth less than the sum of its parts, as such, just that access to the parts you need is so unreliable.

That said, once Narim is Deacon Primus, I foresee that the new standard punishment for minor infractions will no longer be scrubbing floors with a toothbrush, but scanning or transcribing texts onto a computer, building a digital copy of the library that the residents can access from their rooms via WIFI, or by borrowing a preloaded Kindle or something.

Hum... come to think of it, that wouldn't be a bad idea at all...

[Nicole Bouchard]

Might be easier than you think. A full sort-and-catalogue by someone who is remotely knowledgeable about 'library science', then starts buying up non-book copies of texts to fill the gaps. Trading .pdfs / .epubs with other Chantries and so on. Microforms is another option; you can get the whole Bible on a sheet the size of a postage stamp [4cm²] - meaning that a single office filing cabinet could contain a whole reference library on microfiche. That tech has been around for 90 years by this point so more Chantries are likely to possess it.

But, I've only done a summer job in an archives and spent five years working in a second-hand bookshop, so have zero knowledge on this topic whatsover.

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

It's not that the library is worth less than the sum of its parts, as such, just that access to the parts you need is so unreliable.

That said, once Narim is Deacon Primus, I foresee that the new standard punishment for minor infractions will no longer be scrubbing floors with a toothbrush, but scanning or transcribing texts onto a computer, building a digital copy of the library that the residents can access from their rooms via WIFI, or by borrowing a preloaded Kindle or something.

Hum... come to think of it, that wouldn't be a bad idea at all...

That is nto a bad idea at all, scanning the books in the library making digetal copies and making them available at a Chantry computer as downloadable PDFs for all who might want them would increate the rating in Library to 3 for everyone, until that is done though it is 1 due to everyone having to share books.

Might be easier than you think. A full sort-and-catalogue by someone who is remotely knowledgeable about 'library science', then starts buying up non-book copies of texts to fill the gaps. Trading .pdfs / .epubs with other Chantries and so on. Microforms is another option; you can get the whole Bible on a sheet the size of a postage stamp [4cm²] - meaning that a single office filing cabinet could contain a whole reference library on microfiche. That tech has been around for 90 years by this point so more Chantries are likely to possess it.

But, I've only done a summer job in an archives and spent five years working in a second-hand bookshop, so have zero knowledge on this topic whatsover.

By all means a project to dietalize Steelhaven's books or in other ways copying them, even expanding on the library in digetal format or other copyable storage media would be a perfectly fine project to suggjest the Chantry get started on to better the Chantry and strengthen it's potential, standing and usefulness for the mages who live there.

[Nicole Bouchard]

Nicole neither cares or has the ability to do that.

At most she'll try to get a load of blueprints for various basic gadgets to construct; she's missing whatever Etherites have as their 'How To' manuals or whatever. Perhaps a digitised, hyperlinked 'full back catalogue' of Paradigmia on a USB, if she can afford it [that has lots of blueprints in it too, apparently].

But that's it.

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

That is completley up to the players if this is something the player characters would be willing to invest time and effort into, or even if it is something they would even think of. Warp had a good idea for how that Library rating could come to count fully for everyone and I only said yes if someone want to make a project of it then I am ok with that it seam like a good idea. If no one want to or have the idea to do so then it will remain as is.

[Nicole Bouchard]

(OOC2: I believe rent at Steelhaven would be closer to $1350 monthly in 2015. Boston saw a drastic average rent increase in late 2015/early 2016, but this seems to be mostly from a buttload of new high-price apartment complexes with rent in the $2K-$4K range, from what I can find. Plus, whatever the actual cash price of rent, Resources 1 covers the apartment, maybe a cheap car, and a (very) modest level of comfort. The dots aren't a fixed value, they follow inflation and COL-adjustments.))

No. Boston rent for one-bed in '15 about $2,200. Allston about 15% lower than this, which puts it around $1,850 a month in 2015. (Workings at request).

Resources 1 not enough because Boston stupidly expensive and wages are depressed for eons. Fran's likely to be on perhaps $25k a year which means she'd have a grand total of perhaps $300 a month to spend on *everything else* [possibly even less, what with taxes etc]. Nick's Resources 2 would allow about $1,200 a month. No, the numbers do not add up - and they don't in RL either! [why do you think Nick's pissed at capitalism?].

In this position, I would say that SH apartments are two-dot, possibly starting to bordering on three-dot. [As it does have extra amenities, off-road car parking etc]. One dot in Boston is a cramped crackerbox, a flatshare or somebody's basement. I've always played it like this, which is why Nick's never complained about the apartments and doesn't have that much modesty [as she's used to more cramped conditions, and well, you get used to seeing people in their underwear and stuff].

In the regards to Steelhaven, it's quite possible they get a hugely subsidised rent [say $500 - $750 a month], partly in lieu of getting paid for their duties or for kit wear/tear. A bit like in the old days Kings didn't pay knights etc for serving in wars, but did grant lands to support them.

In that case, Nick would see it that basically, the Chantry was 'paying' her $15k a year for her various maintenance / security services.

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

Here is the thing, you all get the Chantry background, the reaosn why would have something like that is so one do nto need to have a million different markings on the character sheet for the perks a Chantry give. The benefit of living in a Chantry are somewhere to live, security and since is is a collective living arangement one can often afford better things than someone living alone can manage but the downside are Chantry responsibilities such as fighting the enemies of the chantry, doing chores and generally working to better the Chantry.

[Warpmind]

The thing is, "Resources" is a relative Background, not an absolute one. Meaning Resources 1 will always be enough to maintain an alright apartment by local standards. No, it won't secure a house with a garage, but it'll cover rent, food and utilities, with a little to spare for life's small indulgences every now and then. Craphole apartments is Resources 0, where you live paycheck-to-paycheck. Remember that Steelhaven's garage is not large, and most of the few vehicles there are essentially communal, as I recall.

Colin's Resources 2 means he can afford to pay for the extra bedroom for Anna, and still lead a comfortable lifestyle by Boston standards. That's the crucial element you seem to be missing, Resources explicitly states that the references are based on local averages. What's an average wage and rent level in Boston won't match that of London, Ontario, or Fucking, Austria...

[Nicole Bouchard]

Here is the thing, you all get the Chantry background, the reaosn why would have something like that is so one do nto need to have a million different markings on the character sheet for the perks a Chantry give. The benefit of living in a Chantry are somewhere to live, security and since is is a collective living arangement one can often afford better things than someone living alone can manage but the downside are Chantry responsibilities such as fighting the enemies of the chantry, doing chores and generally working to better the Chantry.

Never said 'a million markings on the sheet' was in fact needed. Merely that 'Chantry subsidised rent' is a neat and simple solution to the whole 'how *do* we afford to live here?' question which has it's own trope - 'Friends Rent Control'. That the 'Chantry responsibilities' are in fact a kind of 'service payment' for the cheap rent the characters enjoy.

Meaning Resources 1 will always be enough to maintain an alright apartment by local standards.

This means minimum-wage jobs in London, New York, Boston etc are '0-dot' ones then? And this means a 1-dot salary in London now is £36k and roughly half of Londoners don't even make this.

Colin's Resources 2 means he can afford to pay for the extra bedroom for Anna, and still lead a comfortable lifestyle by Boston standards.

Yes, and the 'subsidised rent' helps in this as rent is the #1 cost of living in Boston. As 'Resources' is not mere cash but a general bar of a 'standard of living'.

I was using real Boston wages and rents and they do not add up. And this *is* the 'World of Darkness' - things here would be even worse. And you said it yourself 'by Boston standards'. Massive gentrification and property bubble means that unless you're lucky to have a form of 'Friends Rent Control' [you own it outright, you've got subsided housing etc] a one-dot liftstyle *is* a horrid micro-apartment or a shared apartment.

My general point is this. I assume the Chantry owns the building outright and probably bought it before WWII. What ever loan was on it was paid off long, long ago. Nor is it 'in the business' of rentals. Therefore, it can afford to charge very discounted rent for the Mages there. It's a 'perk' of being a member of the Chantry, and is a very tasty one indeed.

If nothing else, it means the Mages can spend more time focusing on their studies / chores and less working all hours to pay rent.

Objections to my idea is fine, but I need to understand what they are...

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

0 dots menas you have no saved up means and no regular income, you live hand to mouth the way I understand it. 1 means you rent an apartment that is perfectly ok, you do not own a car but have a scooter or a bus card or a bike, you have no substantial savings but you can cover basic needs and a little left over for hobbies and such. Me and my husband would have 1 in resources, we rent an apartment, we do not own a car but we take the bus whe we need to go somewhere and we have enough for basic needs and bills and to spend on hobbies but no ral luxuries.

[Warpmind]

Eh, Resources 1 *could* mean a car, but we'd be talking something like an '82 Fiat Rustopronto or something that's only held together by desperation and spite, nothing you could actually insure any longer...

[Nicole Bouchard]

Okay, I think I get the issues now.

1 means you rent an apartment that is perfectly ok, you do not own a car but have a scooter or a bus card or a bike, you have no substantial savings but you can cover basic needs and a little left over for hobbies and such.

I see. So a one-dot income in Boston is perhaps around $70k, then? [Or at least $50k]. Average wage of teacher; $54k.

Eh, Resources 1 *could* mean a car, but we'd be talking something like an '82 Fiat Rustopronto or something that's only held together by desperation and spite, nothing you could actually insure any longer...

Not in the UK. Insurance is mandatory and it's crippling. If you insist a car is one-dot, the London one-dot income is now £50k [or at least £40k]. Average wage of a teacher; £40k.

The problem here is local conditions. Here in the UK, we tend to think of Americans as 'rich' because all their homes seem so damn big and most teenagers seem to own a car [even if it a Rustropronto]. The issue is that by UK standards, both car ownership and property is really cheap.

My argument is that 'Boston conditions' are rather poor property-wise, and a SH apartment is a 'two dot' level.

Unless you're about to argue that teachers - normally, a somewhat decently paid member of society - are in fact, working class.

And if they are, how much is a two-dot income? I need to know this as Nick has a two-dot income, but an auto mechanic only earns around $40k a year...

[Warpmind]

Not in the UK. Insurance is mandatory and it's crippling. If you insist a car is one-dot, the London one-dot income is now £50k [or at least £40k]. Average wage of a teacher; £40k.

Misunderstand me correctly here - when I say the car can't be insured, I mean that the car itself won't get repairs covered by insurance - liability etc. will still apply.

And yeah, considering teachers largely *are* working poor in the US, that sounds about right...

[Nicole Bouchard]

No, they're not. If you go to the 'Income Distribution' part of this article and find '$54k', you will then see that in 2015 that 74.47% of Americans earn less than 'you'.

If that is 'working poor', the vast majority of Americans are either 1 or 0 dots!

Drinks are on Mr Colin Moneybags, yes?

The UK Version is harder to read than the American one, if you go to 'post-tax percentiles' graph and find '£30k' [which is about the take-home pay of £40k a year] you'll see it's around 75% too - as in, 75% of Britons earn less than 'you'.

EDIT: I have a rather easy way to sort this out, but it kinda relies on the fact 'this does not add up' needs to be accepted first.

[Warpmind]

You forget one important thing - the US is pretty disparate; what makes for a decent income in rural areas is well below the poverty line in the cities. And an added problem for teachers is that far too often, they have to buy school supplies with their own paycheck, just to have the necessities to teach.

"Working poor" isn't just the income alone, it's greatly affected by how much of the paycheck disappears into rent, utilities, and, in many cases, the basic necessities to stay employed.

Living on $4500/month is a lot easier if rent and utilities is $650, rather than $2000. Which is why Resources can't represent fixed numbers; a character living in a low-cost area, but working in a high-cost area will be inherently better off than a colleague making the same wage, but living in the high-cost area.

[Nicole Bouchard]

The idea that a person in the top 25% income bracket in a country is only one dot is positively frigging nuts, even if they are spending 10% of their paycheck on school supplies. And I have to tell you this, that don't happen so much in the UK. At least, not by American levels.

But... you do make a point. Though you're picking the wrong hill to defend it from. Which is - if Great One is willing to listen - I have an alternative Resources system which I am 95% certain will actually work better. And no, it is not some nasty homebrew either; completely within the spirit and perhaps even letter of Da Rules.

Otherwise, I want Great One to explain how Nick can have 2-dots at her $40k a year as an auto mechanic, how they permitted Morrigan to have 2-dots at all, how on earth Serge is generating $50k worth of art commissions *and* paying to live at SH and from you how amazing Colin's business must be to be generating at least... let's say, $65k a clear profit.

[Warpmind]

"Keeping costs down" helps a lot.

Colin does get that military pension, which helps with consistent personal income atop what he makes at work - he's good enough to keep the wheels turning there, after all. And then there are times like ren fairs, where he shows up and sets up his little smithy to sell handmade silver jewelry at a hefty markup. Plus, he's mostly frugal, buying in bulk when possible, and might have a few investments that pay a modest, semi-regular sum; something like a few shares in Apple or Amazon, or something like that...

For Nick, I'd say her scrounger's heart probably affects the equation - she doesn't buy new if she can "find" a mostly-workable second-hand item for free and fix it up. Wouldn't be surprised if Nick had a side hustle of selling refurbished parts that work almost like new, at a reasonable price.

Serge, well, Serge probably has a trust fund or something. Seems very much the sort to have that and not having to worry about anything.

Morrigan... might have an exceptionally generous contract with her record company, or she might have a nest egg from somewhere else.

And yes, the wage disparities in the US are nuts. Average C-level execs make 278 times the average worker's wage, as of 2019, and the disparity has been in the X300 range for decades, and that's the average worker we're talking about, not the minimum wage "serfs". So it makes sense for the Resources scale to ignore hard values, and instead describe it as relative levels of comfort.

[Nicole Bouchard]

..or, Steelhaven does not charge 'full market rent' for their apartments? After all, if the rent is reduced from $1,800 a month to $1,000 that's akin to giving Nick / Colin / Fran / Serge etc a $9,600 yearly pay raise...

But I'll wait until Great One says they want to hear my idea before going further.

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