Re: Downtime planning thread.

by Nicole Bouchard 20.10.19 1:27

Of course I'm familiar with commodity currencies - but the thing is, when the commodity was a consumable, there was never, from what I can tell, a centralized banking authority of any kind responsible for the issuing of it; even in Sumer, when they used a Shekel of barley as the base unit of the economy, the governmental involvement was pretty much limited to establishing equivalent commodity values (how many shekels of barley for a cow, or a fish, etc.), as opposed to issuing standardized bags of barley to be passed around in trade.

You're right. However, the ancient Sumer 'state' would have established a) 'shekel' as a unit of weight and b) quality control regarding barley. Even if they'd not have gone around enforcing this definition [which they might have; Ancient Egypt had their own 'trading standards' in regards to weights/measures] it would have become de facto standard as it was the only method acceptable to the state in regards to tax payment.

We saw similar in early medieval Europe where many peasants paid their taxes to their lord in grain [due to a dearth of coinage]. The lord would usually have the only threshing-floor/mill in the village [turning the crop into grain] and would use their 'official measures' to first take their tax and then fee to use the 'facilities' - leaving what was left for the peasant to [hopefully] see them through the year. There had been instances of rebellion at times it was learned the lord had been using 'dodgy measures' [which was actually illegal], and in England led to the development of the position of 'Reeve' - a man elected by the peasants to watch the threshing etc like a hawk and make sure it was all legit.

Same thing with Tass; you can't track it like you would metal coin or bullion, or cowry shells, or the Rai stones of Yap, since the Tass is expected to be consumed at some point.

Who'd need to track it? Couldn't 'track' sacks of grain, beaver pelts or packets of cigarettes either - but they worked as commodity money. In fact, early countries couldn't track their specie money anyway. You're thinking like one in the 21st Century - not the 16th.

The Narids, on the other hand, is an entirely different kettle of fish; I would be VERY surprised if there was no centralized banking authority or authorized mint that made the physical coins and tracked how much was in circulation at any time. (Guessing the Virtual Adepts have some greater part of the responsibility for the latter...)

And you've hit the problem! Minting of Navids is more advanced than a 'Tass Standard' but also requires it as a basis of value! Economically; stupid. Like trying to put on underpants after trousers...

Look, this discussion is becoming too bogged down in detail and distracted by tangents. I will lay out how I see the whole thing working - which allows Great One [or anyone else] to cite individual points that they disagree with - which I can then answer.

#1: Horizon on 'Tass Standard' - it's the 'accepted medium of exchange' when it comes to taxes, fines and debts. [This makes sense as Tass is perhaps the only thing Mages can't 'magic up', unlike gold, USD etc and therefore it has 'stable value'.]

#2: A 'Tass Standard' requires, well a basic 'standard of Tass' in power measurement/purity for the system to work. [If we do not have this, we do not have #1.]

#3: Majority of people on Horizon unable to test Tass themselves. [As they are not Mages].

#4: Much of the 'trading' on Horizon between strangers. [So there is a lack of trust between parties]

#5: Therefore, 'trusted medium of exchange' required to make up for #4. [QED]

#6: Easiest way is for 'Tass Mints' to exist. Both buyer and seller trust the Mint, even if they don't trust each other. [Which is a huge improvement for trading than barter].

#7: 'Tass Mints' also convert 'untrusted Tass' into 'trusted Tass' when needed. [Solving #3/#4 for 'tourists'; nobody wants visitors to turn up with a huge amount of wealth which is unspendable!]

#8: There can be several types of 'trusted Tass'. Not just from the Tass Mints, but also from high-status Chantries [such as Doissetep]. [It's all about trust, and more than one 'producer' can be trusted. Just like in RL in Scotland there are 4 printers of banknotes, all accepted.]

#9: A seller can accept other 'payment methods' if they so wish. But that is optional - and most transactions are done in 'Trusted Tass' or Navids for everyone accepts them. [Folding back to #5].

#10: Navids circulate as the 'loose change' of Horizon. Their value is tied to a dram of Tass. [Back to #1].

#11: Navids are 'token currency' - they represent a fixed value of Tass held in a 'Tass Mint' vault which can be 'traded for' on demand. [So if you have 1,000N, you've got the legal right to go in with your coin-purse and demand 5 drams].

#12: 'Tass Mints' also trade various Sleeper currencies for 'trusted Tass' and/or Navids at a fixed rate. [Good chance Tass is fixed to USD, and then the 'current price' is used to convert. So a Norwegian can go in with 40,000 NOK, which is 'translated' to $4,260, leading to being given 10 drams of Tass and 130N. Well, minus any 'handling fee']

This system would obey basic economic laws, is fairly stable, doesn't rely on any RL 'innovations' past c1400 and has a low 'organisational overhead' [which is important for a society which is as small as the one on Horizon]. Lastly, it's an economic system in which all other Umbrial 'realms', Chantries and Mages can take part in with ease.

Nice to know kitty enjoyed it. Mine 'enjoys' his by ripping them to pieces...

by Warpmind 20.10.19 10:10

I think where your reasoning falls apart a bit here (from point #6 and onward, "Tass Mint" should be swapped for "Exchange Houses" or similar, and everything onward works like a charm) is that Tass isn't easily quantifiable by weight or "purity", as such - what a dram of Tass is is an amount of power housed in whatever shape or form it comes in. Essentially, like batteries; you could get one battery containing 1 Ampére-hour of power, and another containing 20 Ampére-hours of power. With Tass, no-one is going to care much if the former has the shape of a quartz crystal, and the latter has the shape of a humongous fungus. Or vice versa; that's equally plausible - though a Mage might be personally less inclined to eat a 15-pound mushroom for a single dram of Quintessence. Razz

But I'm all in favor of exchange houses at the docks, and throughout the city, it's just that physical standardization of an essentially non-physical commodity with varied physical expressions... doesn't work right.

by Nicole Bouchard 20.10.19 11:12

Okay, typo. I've now corrected #2 to be 'power measurement/purity' instead. In which Mage already has - the dram. I blame this on the fact part of my mind was still thinking about sacks of grain...

With commodity money, size and weight of said dram is important; for if you're carrying around say 15 drams to pay for a Wonder [or something] you'd prefer it to be in [for example] 50g crystals the size of an USB stick than 3kg balls of rock the size of melons - if nothing else, 15 crystals can be transported in a pouch in your pocket while 15 melon-rocks will require a wheelbarrow and possibly a burly assistant. This is critical for the likes of Horizon, as they lack all other means of making large financial transactions [no cheques, banknotes, credit/debit cards, wire transfers etc] so 'portability' can be an issue.

As for the ~30kg of fungus, well that's almost unusable. Can't physically eat it, can barely transport it [as fungus is light, it's going to be the size of a duvet]. It's prime material for 'refining' into a better form.

'Physical standardisation' would be quite literally for the various types of 'trusted Tass' to be in a rather portable form - nothing more or less. All the other types would exist, but they'd more be viewed as 'valuable commodity' rather than 'money'. After all, that giant fungus is 'worth' around $400, but even if there was no 'trusted Tass' barely no shoppie would accept it as payment for it would be a complete bitch to store/transport. Therefore, trade it into a 'Mint' [or bank, assay office, Tasssmiths or whatever] as soon as possible and turn it into something spendable.

That's the name of the game in business - make it as easy for people to spend money as you can.

by **Anja Rebekka Schultze** 20.10.19 14:21

Vervain is actually rather gentle with her toys, we har to replace her play tunnel and her bird on a string. But that is about that. She still prefer the old broken tunnel to the new one though. She sleeps in it when there are thunder og she feels scared, like the first night after she was fixed.

by Adley 20.10.19 16:50

size and shape are less of a problem than unfavorable resonances, when correspondence and other magic are possible. A mage just has to have nearby access to their tass to use it - which could probably mean you can figure out how to finagle it with magic. It might be a bit unweildy for those that are unable to put it in their bag of holding but they could trade it, sure. But magic materials aren't likely to be super standardized minted as 'one thing' outside of the Union likely, they even have a rote for sanitizing nodes. I can even see people collecting weird and unique tass, or that from certain mages.

by Nicole Bouchard 20.10.19 17:43

For I think at least the fifth time, I wasn't thinking 'one type only'. I was thinking of a series of types of 'trusted Tass' - just like in the RL we have 180 currencies currently in existence yet only ~20 are considered 'solid' [holds value], 8 are 'strong' [used as reserve etc] and only 2 [Euro and USD] have 'worldwide acceptance'.

And while size and shape is not much a problem if you are planning to do something with that Tass, it is if you're planning to use it as money. In the 'trusted Tass' case, much of it may simply circulate around almost indefinitely as a 'store of value', rather than being tapped for the preciousness within [rather like gold coins going around and around rather than being melted down and used in rings or dental fillings].

As for 'tapping the Tass on the sly'... hmm, perhaps there can be a Rote performed on each bit of the 'trusted Tass' so it's obvious it's been drained? In fact, this is another reason why said Tass would circulate in Horizon.

I'm trying to square this circle. Without 'trusted Tass', we'll have a situation where every transaction involving Tass will mean it needs 'checking', and as only 5% of Horizon are mages, this means some 90% of the time both shoppie and customer leaving to go to the 'Tass checker', which would be a laborious task and would give shopkeepers a strong reason not to accept Tass, period [we humans being rather lazy].

The only other way we can deal with this situation in a way which makes sense would be to remove Tass as currency - it's Navids all the way. Tass still has 'value', but you'd basically have to sell it for Navids.

Cats always need somewhere to 'chill'. Mine likes the gap between a pair of kitchen units. Unsurprisingly, it's by the hot water tank and is therefore always nice and toasty...

by **Anja Rebekka Schultze** 20.10.19 18:18

I can not follow all of this thread right now I am just jumping in to say that discussing it is completely fine but we are not removing Tass as currency, or making only minted, standardized Tass suitable as payment. Doing that do not fit the setting, and it makes no sense to me to do either of those things.

Yeah Vervain likes small places, boxes, shelves and the like, but she loves her play tunnel.

by Nicole Bouchard 20.10.19 23:43

While you are perfectly within your rights to make a ruling on anything you wish, any time you wish I will admit that I'm a bit worried that you will make such ruling even before you have read the discussion about it. And on something which there's barely two lines in one book on it. Written by people who I suspect know precious little about Economics.

by Adley 21.10.19 6:52

Problem is who gets to decide what is trusted and who gets to say what is and isn't of value when the value of tass is literally quintessence and possibly resonance if you're using those rules (we sort of are, mostly for flavor or to talk about corruption vs dynamic, static, etc). Mostly, everyone agrees tainted tass is bad stuff and it's illegal and not a good idea to use for any mage that wants to stay uncorrupted in the Traditions. But what is good and trusted, and who decides that and why, who creates verification process upon what principles, who actually verifies it builds its own power that's basically the same power the Syndicate wields

by Nicole Bouchard 21.10.19 7:43

Three parts;

#1: The definition of 'trusted' is down to public opinion, nothing more. That's the whole thing about trust - you can't legislate it. The most any organisation [such a state] can do is to try to put in rules etc to encourage trust.

An RL example can be with English/British gold/silversmiths; their guilds encouraged trust to build in their products with use of hallmarks, eventually making them mandatory. This meant that buyers could trust the hallmark, even if they didn't trust the person selling the product.

#2: Other 'untrusted' Tass [as long as 'clean'] still has value. But my idea is that the seller would have to find a buyer who could test this first. Normally, this would be a Tass mint/exchange/whatever.

However, if there is trust between the buyer and seller then that's okay, said Tass can [and will] be accepted. It's like the use of old-fashioned cheques - that you'd only accept them if you trusted the cheque-writer was 'good for it'.

#3: It's not about control, or power - it's quite literally just a system of 'establishing trust' between strangers in which few have the immediate ability to verify the 'value'. And as the vast majority of Horizon inhabitants cannot instantly verify said value... some kind of verification system is needed.

A touch Syndicate-like? Sure. After all, they grew out of the mediaeval banks in Europe who got the whole 'trust' issue and worked hard to gain such trust.

[Anyone remotely curious about this topic, I highly recommend reading Terry Pratchett's Making Money. You'll never look at money the same way again...]

by Adley 21.10.19 8:09

Trust certainly has been and is currently legislated, having laws and rules is what legislation is. And there is basically nothing in humanity (and especially for mages) that isn't about power of a kind or another.

So how do you know that you're getting real tass and not fake tass? I imagine some smart hedge or mage has by now developed a spell and/or an item to scan it the way people use phones for everything. Prime is an important sphere in Mage for a reason. There's also hedge path magick that deals with hedge version of tass, mana iirc, so I assume they have a similar way of seeing if they're getting something real and not dross (which ironically is the name in WoD for Changeling solid glamour, which is to a mage a particular kind of tass). As for the rest, it's just the same barter system that already exists. You either take exchange or not, based on your need and what they're selling.

And now I feel like I'm playing magickal Catan, trying to sell wood for sheep.

by Nicole Bouchard 21.10.19 8:27

If there is another, simpler method where either trust can be put in certain types of Tass or shopkeepers can immediately and easily verify the quality/quantity of offered Tass - I'm all ears.

That is what I care about here; an economic system which at 'adds up'. Just because I'm suspending disbelief in regards to 'Magick' and other supernatural critters etc it doesn't mean I have to do it for everything.

My suggestions [which have evolved through this discussion] are simply ones which have been proven to basically work from RL history and requires as little 'running costs' or 'innovations'. If there's a magical 'solution' which does this, I'm happy.

by Adley 21.10.19 8:37

I have pretty much zero interest in attempting to create a realistic fictional Mage economy for the WoD M20 setting and am fine with things as they are - fictional econ is not likely to be a major theme in this game (but I know there's a book for M20 setting for the Syndicate that talks about using money as a focus). Suspending disbelief because we're not sure how many dewies (to borrow a term from the Magicians) it is to trade sheep for wood without examing if the dewies are legit and not forged is fine with me and can probably be rp'd through if need be depending how many sheep I have to trade.

I just gave examples on how to see if tass is real - use magic to examine it and make magic devices, you could contract a spirit and contract it to check magick for a spirit mage, make contacts, go by word of mouth from your mentor, there are ways to do things. In Horizon they would be much easier to maintain, too and not prone to paradox. Figuring out how much tass is in a thing is going to be a skill people in that sort of business would have and people dealing in bad tass would likely not be living for long in the mage world.

by Nicole Bouchard 21.10.19 19:03

- Just because you don't have an interest in a 'realistic fictional economy' it doesn't mean all others feel the same. You could say the same about, for example politics.
- I'm not looking for 'realistic', I'm merely aiming at 'ones which don't have gaping holes'.
- Everyone has their peeves/buttons/touchy spots - often things which they personally know pretty well and see another portraying badly. And as one who's studied Economics quite a bit, I find the said illiteracy in fiction etc annoying [examples; why couldn't the Weasley Twins get a bank loan for their business proposal? Why do most people seem to have no occupation/job in Fallout 3?]. It also means I give respectful nods when a maker does show they've 'thought things through' - like the Tranquil stores in Dragon Age which funds the Circle.
- Knowing how such things work in 'very general terms' helps for general worldbuilding.
- If I see something patently nonsensical to the level of 'this fails even common sense' there's a good chance I won't be able to resist the urge to call it out IC. Trying to sorta ensure I don't end up putting anyone in this position.
- I hate with a passion the concept of barter being touted as a viable model for economics.

Anyway, I've been thinking more about Tass, and think I've hit another possible solution - 'Tass assayer' Wonders. As ubiquitous in Horizon as the UV lights etc in ours, allows our humble shoppies to sort out the 'bad' from 'good' [though they may still reject Tass which is 'too big/heavy' to deal with, like Warp's mushrooms]. Though 'concentrated' Tass will still be the most popular for spending, though [and will continue to be, unless everyone is issued with Bags of Holding as standard].

by Adley 21.10.19 19:36

That's what I was saying earlier - an item that lets you figure out the amount and quality of tass - this would let people decide what kind of tass they wanted to trade/barter without taking the locus of control away from the people in the middle of the bargain or eroding the more interesting parts of the exchange (rp opportunities) or have to change much of anything.

Besides examining magick being a Prime 1 spell, which many mages would be likely to have or want to have learned, or other workarounds too, spirits of energy or money of sorts could be contracted, etc. 9 mages in a room probably couldn't agree what kind of pizza to share so deciding what the 'business community' thinks is legit trusted tass for them would run into the same issues lol mostly b/c it would depend on the intended use of the tass and how hot the item was that's being traded. No one likes anchovies and mushrooms, except for that one person that does, and will fight you on it. Also since this is a 2E setting mostly, magick items on Horizon would be more common and magick use is more coincidental. You could use spells to shrink your tass, with magick. There's lots of cool ways to do things and probably some mage has tried it at some point for better or worse.

Just because you have a vested interest in this though doesn't mean that a lot of everyone else does either, or that we should devote a ton of energy to building an in depth system that we're not going to focus much on in our game. At a basic level if it works it's good enough for me, tweaking it a bit can make sense but an in depth overhaul is a lot of work. There are other hills to die on even if Mage is a philosophical game. I've done worldbuilding from the ground up before and most writers don't get experts in everything to work on stuff they're not as savvy on, because knowing that Harry Potter had a /very stupid/ method for a lot of things like their money system didn't make the bank scenes any less interesting for character moments (even if it is annoying sometimes for sure, and this applies to other things too like how weapons are handled and portrayed and how military systems are portrayed, etc and we've all gone lol that's dumb).

by **Anja Rebekka Schultze** 21.10.19 20:52

I will have to try to catch up here a few posts at the time.

To have 'product standards' and 'generally accepted types of currency' is not 'Technocratic'. These are innovations which were not new even when Porthos was an Apprentice. Lastly, I will point out that if Horizon is organised enough to mint Navids, it's also organised enough to have some form of 'Tass Standards' [in fact, in RL 'gold standards' came in before token currency].

Tass is not the same thing, Tass is magick, it is art, it have a million different flavors and Resonances to try to nerf that to make it into one dull gray uniform unit that are always the same is not the same as using coins and it is very much Technocratic and also go against every idea of Tass. Tass is simply not something you can standardize.

I think they would use it. That over centuries, a few 'Tass Mints' in Horizon have become so trusted that their crystals/discs/vials are both 'pure' and 'handily portable' they are a de facto 'Tass Standard' - everybody on Horizon knows that say 'Roderik's crystals' [each with their assay stamp] are 'good', and everybody on Horizon will accept them without checking. They're so 'good' in fact that nearly all 'Roderiks' aren't broken down for use in magick but end up circulating as currency or sitting in vaults etc.

I think you have misunderstood what Tass is. Allot of settings have magickal energy and boosts in handy dandy packages, this is not Tass, it is not uniform, to say you want to mint it into one type and one size is like saying you want to mind human beings into one type and one size, it might be possible but it is far from desirable. Tass have flavors, if you remove that you remove the whole point of having it as a part of Mage.

Or, it's common for 'Earthbounds' first port of call to be 'Roderiks', 'Zurner & Cobbetts' or another Tass mint in Concordia to convert their 'muggle money' and 'raw' Tass into Navids and/or 'Roderik crystals' [or another 'trusted Tass' type] for Horizon spending. After all, Potter has Gringotts, doesn't it?

Yes but Mage's system of Tass is not the same as anything you find in harry Potter.

Not talking about corrupted Tass. I'm talking about the types of Tass which don't lend themselves to being that 'spendable' - if say Nicole had a dram of Tass which was encased in a 5kg stone, a large mushroom or a griffon pelvis [purely examples!]. She could either wander around trying to spend the damn thing [and being repeatedly declined by merchants] or... she simply goes to Roderiks or another Tass mint, turns it into Navids or their Tass type which is accepted by all merchants.

If you want a company or store on Horizon that specialize in taking Quintessence out of one form and putting it into another for convenience that is completely fine, there can be such a company, that do not mean there will be a standardized type of Tass used but if you want your giant stone drained and the Quint made into sand instead for example I am sure there can be mages on Horizon that will perform such a service for you for a price. Many would want to keep the Tass original though for the flavor that would bring.

Okay. 'Boston Price' of Tass is $400. Colin then learns how to refine corrupted Tass, a surge of Tass into the local economy and the value falls to $200. This means that Nicole can now by 10 drams with $2,000 rather than 5. As Navids are tied to the price of a dram, this means the exchange rate has gone from $2 = 1N to $1 = 1N.

Then if the suddenly twice-as-rich Bostonian Mages all hit Horizon and start spending [to take advantage] it will cause inflation as in effect 'too much cash chasing too few goods'. Esp. for Horizon, as it's such a small economy.

This is often seen during wars. That a small village or island finds themselves hosting a military base, and said base has basically increased the local money supply by 200% - 400% from the squaddies etc trying to spend their pay and therefore, inflationary.

Tass will not drop much in price, not unless there is a huge influx since there is allot more Tass needed than what actually are available.

Anyway, my 'Roderiks' idea has the advantages that it removes the pain-in-ass barter system,

I like the barter system, it adds character and flavor to the setting and we are keeping it.

makes the Horizon economy more stable, doesn't require any direct 'organising' [as it's a system which organically grew], obeys the laws of economics and most importantly - does not require any RL innovations from after 1400. Quite literally, the founder of 'Roderiks' could have been in London/Amsterdam/Paris/etc in c1600, saw how the Muggle goldsmiths and bankers function and thought 'that's a good idea!' and replicate it on Horizon. After all, it's not utterly fossilised - they got telephones in the 1980s, and chances are by 2015 now have some form of rudimentary 'intranet'.

The only disadvantage this has is that it runs a bit counter to what the book says. But as you rightly pointed out, many fantasy/magic 'worlds' completely fail economics. But basically I'm trying to extrapolate a whole functioning system from a few lines from a single book written in 1996 produced by people who don't know economics that well.

It also completely ignore what Tass is so we are not going to do that.

Again, the problem with trying to "standardize" Tass like that is that Tass is a consumable to be used, not like gold or silver currency which is expected to be circulated (money hoarders/1%ers and coin collectors not withstanding), so the analogy remains flawed.

There'll be a lot of bartering in services and favours, too, as well as in Tass, so it's not like the entire economy is based in a single "currency" anyway. Though I do imagine that a number of Magi with Nodes of their own do a fairly sharp trade in Tass that has a specific, predictable Resonance - "Roderik's clean and balanced Tass crystals are good and fine, but if you want to power up your ability to stay calm and collected, and to think clearly under pressure, you'll want Mymir's Well-O'-Wisdom Tass, conveniently bottled in one-dram, two-dram, five-dram and ten-dram flasks."

This.

How do you see it, then? You explicitly said my 'Tass mints' are a good idea, accepting Navids means you implicitly accept the fact Horizon banks exist [for converting from USD/etc] and basic human behaviour means if Tass has standing as currency that over time a few 'types' will become much more accepted than others.

Are some types of Tass worth more generally and easier to sell yes, do that mean they are the only types used for trading on Horizon, no. Now do Horizon have a bank, yes sort of, do it nerf Tass into one simple unit that is always the same no.

I'm visualising a situation where on Horizon [let's say] 'Roderiks' are trusted/accepted by all shopkeepers, 'Mymirs' are accepted to the more well-informed shoppies, 'Babus' are accepted only by those who know her or can 'assay' it on the spot and that corrupted Tass Colin found is accepted by none. That having several 'trusted types of Tass' floating around solves the situation of mass barter [stupidly inefficient] or the fact every shopkeeper would have to 'assay' every bit of Tass they find [which would be hard if they are not a Mage].

I'm not really sure what the objection is...

Barter is the thing on Horizon. If you have seen Magicians there is a scene in season 4 where one of the characters need an expensive magical artifact, she only have junk on hand when she get to a disorganized magic market, but she trade her things to someone who need those and then trade with another for something else and go back and forth until she have what she needs, that is how things work on Horizon and that is part of what give it flavor it is not mean to be efficient, it is not efficient it is a mess, that is part of the setting.

Of course I'm familiar with commodity currencies - but the thing is, when the commodity was a consumable, there was never, from what I can tell, a centralized banking authority of any kind responsible for the issuing of it; even in Sumer, when they used a Shekel of barley as the base unit of the economy, the governmental involvement was pretty much limited to establishing equivalent commodity values (how many shekels of barley for a cow, or a fish, etc.), as opposed to issuing standardized bags of barley to be passed around in trade.
Same thing with Tass; you can't track it like you would metal coin or bullion, or cowry shells, or the Rai stones of Yap, since the Tass is expected to be consumed at some point.

The Narids, on the other hand, is an entirely different kettle of fish; I would be VERY surprised if there was no centralized banking authority or authorized mint that made the physical coins and tracked how much was in circulation at any time. (Guessing the Virtual Adepts have some greater part of the responsibility for the latter...)

Again this.

You're right. However, the ancient Sumer 'state' would have established a) 'shekel' as a unit of weight and b) quality control regarding barley. Even if they'd not have gone around enforcing this definition [which they might have; Ancient Egypt had their own 'trading standards' in regards to weights/measures] it would have become de facto standard as it was the only method acceptable to the state in regards to tax payment.

The problem here is this, we can determine what a weight unit of grain is, a unit of Tass is not the same thing. Tass is crystallized magick, it is not meant to be quantified and pushed into a standard then one miss the point of the whole thing. Bandages from a Hospital node will help with healing magick but be detrimental to a fireball, volcanic rocks from Ireland might help with fireballs and contacting fairies of a given type but not with healing, they do different things they are not just diff reduction in a bottle.

We saw similar in early medieval Europe where many peasants paid their taxes to their lord in grain [due to a dearth of coinage]. The lord would usually have the only threshing-floor/mill in the village [turning the crop into grain] and would use their 'official measures' to first take their tax and then fee to use the 'facilities' - leaving what was left for the peasant to [hopefully] see them through the year. There had been instances of rebellion at times it was learned the lord had been using 'dodgy measures' [which was actually illegal], and in England led to the development of the position of 'Reeve' - a man elected by the peasants to watch the threshing etc like a hawk and make sure it was all legit.

It is illegal on Horizon to lie about the amount of Tass you barter with or the type and there are a million ways to discover that someone have done so and who have done so the first time that Merchant try to spend the illicit Tass, discover he have been had and contact the Security Council, such underhanded practices are not a good idea it is far to easy to get caught.

And you've hit the problem! Minting of Navids is more advanced than a 'Tass Standard' but also requires it as a basis of value! Economically; stupid. Like trying to put on underpants after trousers...

It is done out of necessity as magickal resources, apprentices and instruction are the only real value in Mage society, everything else can be made with the right Spheres.

#1: Horizon on 'Tass Standard' - it's the 'accepted medium of exchange' when it comes to taxes, fines and debts. [This makes sense as Tass is perhaps the only thing Mages can't 'magic up', unlike gold, USD etc and therefore it has 'stable value'.]

Magickal resources ae what you pay your way with in mage society yes.

#2: A 'Tass Standard' requires, well a basic 'standard of Tass' in power measurement/purity for the system to work. [If we do not have this, we do not have #1.]

You have a measurement of a Dram, beyond that Tass can simply not be pushed into a standard like that without loosing it's magick.

#3: Majority of people on Horizon unable to test Tass themselves. [As they are not Mages].

Not a problem they can easily have it tested or use talismans to do so.

#4: Much of the 'trading' on Horizon between strangers. [So there is a lack of trust between parties]

Horizon also have a pretty aggressive police force who do have magick and are rather good at finding wrongdoers.

#5: Therefore, 'trusted medium of exchange' required to make up for #4. [QED]

No not at all see the two answers above.

#6: Easiest way is for 'Tass Mints' to exist. Both buyer and seller trust the Mint, even if they don't trust each other. [Which is a huge improvement for trading than barter].

We are not going to sacrifice the magick and creativity of Mage in order to have a more convenient barter system.

#7: 'Tass Mints' also convert 'untrusted Tass' into 'trusted Tass' when needed. [Solving #3/#4 for 'tourists'; nobody wants visitors to turn up with a huge amount of wealth which is unspendable!]

You can not change Resonance around like that easily so no.

#8: There can be several types of 'trusted Tass'. Not just from the Tass Mints, but also from high-status Chantries [such as Doissetep]. [It's all about trust, and more than one 'producer' can be trusted. Just like in RL in Scotland there are 4 printers of banknotes, all accepted.]

#9: A seller can accept other 'payment methods' if they so wish. But that is optional - and most transactions are done in 'Trusted Tass' or Navids for everyone accepts them. [Folding back to #5].

There are no such system on Horizon and we are not loosing the flavor of the use of Tass to create it either because one player again have a problem with the way things are done.

#10: Navids circulate as the 'loose change' of Horizon. Their value is tied to a dram of Tass. [Back to #1].

Yes this is true.

#11: Navids are 'token currency' - they represent a fixed value of Tass held in a 'Tass Mint' vault which can be 'traded for' on demand. [So if you have 1,000N, you've got the legal right to go in with your coin-purse and demand 5 drams].

Tass can not be standardized in such a way we are not going to be changing it to this.

#12: 'Tass Mints' also trade various Sleeper currencies for 'trusted Tass' and/or Navids at a fixed rate. [Good chance Tass is fixed to USD, and then the 'current price' is used to convert. So a Norwegian can go in with 40,000 NOK, which is 'translated' to $4,260, leading to being given 10 drams of Tass and 130N. Well, minus any 'handling fee']

Very few mages will be willing to sell Tass for sleeper money but sure you can have businesses that do this and you can barter with them but none of the trusted tass stuff we are not making a Tass standard it just do not fit the setting.

I think where your reasoning falls apart a bit here (from point #6 and onward, "Tass Mint" should be swapped for "Exchange Houses" or similar, and everything onward works like a charm) is that Tass isn't easily quantifiable by weight or "purity", as such - what a dram of Tass is is an amount of power housed in whatever shape or form it comes in. Essentially, like batteries; you could get one battery containing 1 Ampére-hour of power, and another containing 20 Ampére-hours of power. With Tass, no-one is going to care much if the former has the shape of a quartz crystal, and the latter has the shape of a humongous fungus. Or vice versa; that's equally plausible - though a Mage might be personally less inclined to eat a 15-pound mushroom for a single dram of Quintessence. Razz

But I'm all in favor of exchange houses at the docks, and throughout the city, it's just that physical standardization of an essentially non-physical commodity with varied physical expressions... doesn't work right.

This.

With commodity money, size and weight of said dram is important; for if you're carrying around say 15 drams to pay for a Wonder [or something] you'd prefer it to be in [for example] 50g crystals the size of an USB stick than 3kg balls of rock the size of melons - if nothing else, 15 crystals can be transported in a pouch in your pocket while 15 melon-rocks will require a wheelbarrow and possibly a burly assistant. This is critical for the likes of Horizon, as they lack all other means of making large financial transactions [no cheques, banknotes, credit/debit cards, wire transfers etc] so 'portability' can be an issue.

The thing is you can already do this, with Prime 3 you can take Quintessence out of one pattern and put it into another though it keep it's Resonance. I am sure there are places on Horizon that will do this for you if you wish to and can not do it yourself. One do not need to standardize Tass to make it possible to take the Tass your magick bat cat leave as dropping that you do not want to drate and make it into crystals, you use Prime 3 or get a friend with the know how to do the change for you.

As for the ~30kg of fungus, well that's almost unusable. Can't physically eat it, can barely transport it [as fungus is light, it's going to be the size of a duvet]. It's prime material for 'refining' into a better form.

Correspondence is a thing.

'Physical standardisation' would be quite literally for the various types of 'trusted Tass' to be in a rather portable form - nothing more or less. All the other types would exist, but they'd more be viewed as 'valuable commodity' rather than 'money'. After all, that giant fungus is 'worth' around $400, but even if there was no 'trusted Tass' barely no shoppie would accept it as payment for it would be a complete bitch to store/transport. Therefore, trade it into a 'Mint' [or bank, assay office, Tasssmiths or whatever] as soon as possible and turn it into something spendable.

There do not need to be a standardization for this if you want your Tass to be smaller, make it smaller yourself or someone you know can do so, not a problem.

That's the name of the game in business - make it as easy for people to spend money as you can.

This is the Traditions not the Syndicate the mystical properties of Tass are far more important than how practical it is to use as money.

size and shape are less of a problem than unfavorable resonances, when correspondence and other magic are possible. A mage just has to have nearby access to their tass to use it - which could probably mean you can figure out how to finagle it with magic. It might be a bit unweildy for those that are unable to put it in their bag of holding but they could trade it, sure. But magic materials aren't likely to be super standardized minted as 'one thing' outside of the Union likely, they even have a rote for sanitizing nodes. I can even see people collecting weird and unique tass, or that from certain mages.

This absolutely this.

I have to pause it here as I have things to do. I will try to catch more up when I can but as I have a summary to write it can be a while.

by Nicole Bouchard 22.10.19 1:51

Just because you have a vested interest in this though doesn't mean that a lot of everyone else does either, or that we should devote a ton of energy to building an in depth system that we're not going to focus much on in our game. At a basic level if it works it's good enough for me

We agree to agree - I just want it to work on a basic level too. 'A Tass Standard' or 'Tass-testing Wonders in stores' would allow a functional economy, and would be happy.

I like the barter system, it adds character and flavor to the setting and we are keeping it.

What, a true barter system? Not just a pretend barter system where it looks like person A swapped X for Y but instead shopkeeper basically valued X as say 10 drams and so will swap for Y which is 9 drams?

Barter is the thing on Horizon. If you have seen Magicians there is a scene in season 4 where one of the characters need an expensive magical artifact, she only have junk on hand when she get to a disorganized magic market, but she trade her things to someone who need those and then trade with another for something else and go back and forth until she have what she needs, that is how things work on Horizon and that is part of what give it flavor it is not mean to be efficient, it is not efficient it is a mess, that is part of the setting.

This is not just 'not efficient', but hugely inefficient to the point of utter insanity. Now, while I see some barter going on [folk who are holding items 'too important' to part with with mere money/Tass, but a particular item might persuade me etc] the bulk of 'everyday' trading should be in Navids/Tass just so an economy can function.

In short, if we turn up in Horizon and Nicole spots the legions of residents shuffling around trying to barter anything and everything she will loudly complain 'how f***ing stupid' this is. And coming from a Communist, that's quite the indictment. And if someone says 'well this is how Mages organise themselves' I think she'd then think 'well mages can't be trusted with anything important then' and wonder whether the Union being in charge of the 'normal world' is a less worse option - while she may hate the Syndicate she'll recognise that at least she gets paid in money at work which allows her to choose what to buy easily rather than a random load of 'stuff' which she'll then have to waste loads of time trying to swap for stuff she actually wants.

Just putting it out there, on the chance that is the view you wish the PC's to end up with.

Very few mages will be willing to sell Tass for sleeper money but sure you can have businesses that do this and you can barter with them but none of the trusted tass stuff we are not making a Tass standard it just do not fit the setting.

As long as there's a decent facility to convert sleeper money to Navids/Tass [and vice-versa] that's fine. It will make it much easier for 'tourists' from Earth to by nice Horizon stuff, and vice versa [for Earth must have some things Horizon wants].

We are not going to sacrifice the magick and creativity of Mage in order to have a more convenient barter system.

The 'Tass-tester' Wonder is a 'magical' option to Trusted Tass. And would seemingly solve both my concern and yours.

Look, I see you made your mind up on this, but please please for my own sanity read this [short] article first: http://www.yourarticlelibrary.com/economics/money/5-main-difficulties-found-in-barter-system-discussed/37849.

And if you truly want barter everywhere, I assume Horizon is in a permanent economic crisis, hardly any trading happens and poverty for the non-Mage segment is grinding as they can't simply 'magick' up needs and wants.

Operating barter for 'large items' [say property, particularly impressive Wonders, Node access etc] would make some sense. But not for the more mundane shopping needs.

EDIT: Sorry if the above comes off a bit 'snippy', was tired/cold/wet from work last night.

Anyway, one aspect I feel needs to be considered is that Horizon is basically the showpiece of the Traditions - 'how the whole world might look like if we ran it'. And in this, it must show a face which leads visitors from Earth to feel 'I have seen the future and it works'. An economy ruled by barter would function much worse than our own RL economy, a fact which wouldn't be lost on many visitors and would ironically would reinforce the Union's propaganda that 'the Superstitionists can't run anything'.

by Warpmind 23.10.19 11:59

"We've replaced Master Porthos' usual Tass crystals with Folgers Crystals. Let's see if he notices."
*Fireballs and general cataclysmic destruction later*
"Looks like he noticed."

by Jeremy Silverstein 21.11.19 5:19

Anja wrote:(OOC: When you say before he entered fully do that mean Serge opens the door to Jeffry's office and stand in the doorway talking with Colin before entering it?)

Sorry, I meant for Serge to ask Colin that question before opening the door.

by **Anja Rebekka Schultze** 24.11.19 12:44

Sorry about that Jeremy I did not see this OOC message.

by Nicole Bouchard 03.12.19 21:49

Strife's Post:

- I don't think the OoH is as 'Lawful Anal' as you're making out. An organisational that fossilised, bloodthirsty and rigid simply wouldn't be able to recruit/retain Apprentices, for starters. They might be deeply 'conservative' but they're not static; any barely-aware Master [or Adept] based on Earth knows that it's not 1815 and 'some shit no longer flies' [whether they like it or not]. The ones who have not adapted are either hermits, 'shelved' or off in the Umbra.

- 'Lawful Anal' also does nothing to help the Order. Hermetics prize magickal skill, not slavish following the rules. Stressing the latter over everything else creates a culture of buck-passing, indecisiveness, politicking and cronyism - degrading performance to the extent it might threaten the existence of the Order itself.

- Attempting to enforce said rules on the rest of the Traditions would split it. The Adepts would not stand for it, and a good chance the Dreamspeakers wouldn't either for starters.

- Having people like Flavian go around acting like that all looks bad for the rest of the Order; one run-in with that type early on in their career can sour a non-Hermetic for life on their views of the Order. Not good for 'public relations'. Plus, massive dicks usually have loads of enemies. Nicole's counting on the fact that a) Flavian has enemies within his own Chantry and b) his superiors 'know his ways'.

- The Chief is unable to ride Nicole massively on this without appearing to be a hypocrite. He asked her to basically 'ride over the rules' regarding Kwan. Now she attempted to do the same with Flavian. [Admittedly, Adley doesn't know this]. If he was to 'break her' to stop doing this, he'd lose the benefits of this too.

- While I can't explain her reason(s) OOC, they are in fact rather solid. They might be a bit 'Malk-Like' in the logic, but it's not just 'don't like you'.

by **Anja Rebekka Schultze** 04.12.19 8:04

Ok I will start by commenting two things. One is that these out of character discussions with you tend to go on forever and I do not have the time or energy at the moment so I will reply and leave it at that.

Secondly it is hard for me to even know where to begin, from my point of view it is like you are seeing a completely different setting. We are playing a 2 edition setting it have allot of powerful Chantries, a strict hierarchy, ancient mages ruling the Traditions. There are Mage setting that are more liberal but that is not 2 edition.

- I don't think the OoH is as 'Lawful Anal' as you're making out. An organisational that fossilised, bloodthirsty and rigid simply wouldn't be able to recruit/retain Apprentices, for starters. They might be deeply 'conservative' but they're not static; any barely-aware Master [or Adept] based on Earth knows that it's not 1815 and 'some shit no longer flies' [whether they like it or not]. The ones who have not adapted are either hermits, 'shelved' or off in the Umbra.

Real life occult orders are often as formal and they get recruits. Please read the books to see how the Order of Hermes actually work. Also Flavian is not fossilized he he prickly. One do not need to be static to react to how Nicole behaved. If I had gone to visit someone and they had behaved in such a way I would have reacted though I would have addressed in later. That one do not tolerate that kind of behavior do not mean one is fossilized.

- 'Lawful Anal' also does nothing to help the Order. Hermetics prize magickal skill, not slavish following the rules. Stressing the latter over everything else creates a culture of buck-passing, indecisiveness, politicking and cronyism - degrading performance to the extent it might threaten the existence of the Order itself.

Reacting to how Nicole behave is not lawful anal. Hermetics do however follow the rules, you seam to not be reading the same books as I do. A culture of politicking is exactly what the Order of Hermes is about.

Attempting to enforce said rules on the rest of the Traditions would split it. The Adepts would not stand for it, and a good chance the Dreamspeakers wouldn't either for starters.

Most of the Traditions have said rules, the first Protocol is not just for the Order of Hermes and Nicole have pissed of mages from oh just about every Tradition now. Yes the Order of Hermes are often in conflict with the Dreamspeakers and the Virtual Adepts that is part of the game.

Having people like Flavian go around acting like that all looks bad for the rest of the Order;

It enforce a stereotype certainly but it is not a faction of how bad Nicole's behavior makes Steelhaven look.

one run-in with that type early on in their career can sour a non-Hermetic for life on their views of the Order. Not good for 'public relations'. Plus, massive dicks usually have loads of enemies. Nicole's counting on the fact that a) Flavian has enemies within his own Chantry and b) his superiors 'know his ways'.

Every non Hermetic in the room other than Serge was angry at Nicole not Flavian, the Hermetic they think is prickly and difficult to deal with, Nicole they see as rude and crude and an direct insult from Steelhaven. Oh Flavian have enemies and had Nicole behaved in a more polite way chances are she could have gotten them on her side, however what they see is this person starting to order them around out of the blue, never offering any pleasantries or being polite and the moment someone would not tow her line she turn belligerent. That is not behavior that are good for creating allies.

The Chief is unable to ride Nicole massively on this without appearing to be a hypocrite. He asked her to basically 'ride over the rules' regarding Kwan. Now she attempted to do the same with Flavian. [Admittedly, Adley doesn't know this]. If he was to 'break her' to stop doing this, he'd lose the benefits of this too.

No...this is not even a little bit the same. A Morgan is a Master of the Art and Kwan is an Adept he do not break any Protocols in going around the man's red tape. Secondly getting someone's direct number rather than dealing with their lackeys is not the same as being belligerent towards a superior in public, it simply is not.

While I can't explain her reason(s) OOC, they are in fact rather solid. They might be a bit 'Malk-Like' in the logic, but it's not just 'don't like you'.

I am not in any way claiming that Neicole do not have her reasons. Here is the importance of seperating between in character and out of character. I have no problem as such with Nicole behaing as she do, if you are wiling to accept the consequenses.

The problem comes when you try to argue that no she did nothing wrong from a Traditions point of view. You play vampire, this is about like if you play a raging Anarch Brujah and then claim everyone would agree with her and at least everyone but the most stuck up Ventrue would be ok with her, a neonate berating an Ancilla in public, while the fact is that even the other Brujah would have a problem with it, everyone but the other Anarchs would.

Now when I ST Vampire if someone want to play a raging Anarch in a Camarilla game then go for it but you have to also accept that it is likely to lead to your character being punished.

Now the Traditions are not AS conservative as the Camarilla is and they are a bit less bloodthirsty so if Nicole was put on trial the likely result would be Censure meaning she would be given some task, probably a fine and writing a formal apology. If the Deacons handle things themselves then Jeffry likes to be instructive, so where a raging Anarch might end up staked for weeks, severely beaten or some other horrible thing. Nicole will get a reprimand and something similar, but when you play the rebel you have to expect that there will be consequences.

Now while I personally certainly are not for Communism Nicole's reasoning is fine, and by all mean play out what your character feel and think as long as you are ok with there being consequences.

It is a little like when I joined a Wheel of Time game and I asked if I could play a hidden male channeler, the GM said sure as long as you are ok with him probably eventually being found out and captured.

Nicole is very much the rebel most of Steelhaven is not, they might want to change things but doing so within the system, there will be conflicts and you have to accept that.

Now do you think, like Strife said, any military would have accepted Nicole's behavior if she was a low ranking soldier and she spoke that way to a senior officer even if said officer was an ass?

Now you can play the rebel that struggle against every bit of authority, but what we are not going to do is change the setting into one where Nicole's behavior is perfectly acceptable, you choose to create a rebel character, if this was Vampire you choose to play an Anarch where everyone else is Camarilla and that means your character will get into trouble.

And to make it clear it is not that Nicole tried to take initiative that is the problem it is how she did it and what she did when Flavian protested and yes Flavian is an ass, but he is also of higher rank and that actually mean something in the Traditions.

by Nicole Bouchard 08.12.19 17:54

This might sound an odd question, but how does the market for Etherite tools/devices/etc actually work? Canon mentions that Paradigma etc occasionally carry blueprints and that it's possible to basically 'buy' stuff directly from the inventor/maker - but apart from that, nothing.

EDIT: In fact, this question can also apply to other Traditions rather reliant on 'stuff', such as Hermetics.

by Warpmind 08.12.19 19:37

I'm guessing that Paradigma may well include ads for commission work, offering or requesting, as well as there being various shops that are known to make various specialty products either off the rack or with custom modifications.

Comparably, Colin's shop is getting a good reputation for quality custom Foci in silver.

by Nicole Bouchard 08.12.19 19:55

Isn't it possible that 'various shops' might include some Chantries themselves? That they've partly gone into business to 'balance the books'; examples could be Hermetics with a private printing press producing basic spellbooks, Verbenas operating a herb-farm [perhaps in a pocket realm] and an Etherite lab which has a side-line of the production of fairly common items such as EtherGoggles.

This reminds me of what I was thinking about Horizon; that it partly functions as the Tradition's 'Diagon Alley', and as such quite a few of the visitors aren't simply coming to shop, but to also sell their/their Chantry's 'products' to a merchant.

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