Re: Downtime planning thread.

[Warpmind]

Definitely sounds plausible.
Research chantries are good and fine, but it seems quite likely there're a few manufactorium chantries, too.

Don't think Horizon would be describable as "Diagon Alley", though, what with Horizon being a whole world of its own, with a huge city. It's better to assume Diagon Alley is near the Umbra Port, as sort of a tourist trap.

[Nicole Bouchard]

Or, the Chantry uses the sale of their 'products' to fund their research; such as the Hermetics use their 'book sales' to fund the 'archaeological expeditions' to acquire more, rarer tomes.

Basically, I'm wondering just how much of the 'gear' mages use is 'unique Artisan' and how much is 'machined Batch production'. To use the Hermetic example again; is every tome made a laborious hand-copy, utilising the traditional skills of a bookbinder, engraver etc or are there a Chantry or three out there who own their own mechanical printing press and crank out a hundred copies or so of "Thelemic Basics" when they feel a need? ["...I was thinking ten copies for our new Apprentices, forty to other Hermetic Chantries - for favours owed - and twenty to be sold to 'Scrivener's of Concordia' to cover the printing costs for the rest..."]

I'm asking this for I've come up with a possible idea on how Nicole can get promoted [and not needing Colin-written letters *smirks*], but depends on me understanding what the "current situation" is.

I meant 'Diagon Alley' in a figurative, not literal sense; that Horizon functions as the 'the main shopping destination for Awakened'. After all, it's one of the very few places where 'magicky' stuff can be seen openly. Plus, most likely place to find Awakened customers.

Though according to Horizon book, it has a population of 30k, with half in Concordia. Not sure it could be called "huge" by any modern definition of the term.

[Warpmind]

Eh, as everyone with a little Correspondence can tell you, size is relative anyway.

15 miles across is pretty decent size for a small city, though. A little bigger than Bergen, Norway in size, which tells me space is really comfy in Concordia.

As for printing books - I'd say The Fragile Path contains a very good indicator that more modern printing methods are available, as Master Porthos mentions in the footnotes that due to the nature of publishing methods, the magical elements of the symbols in Akrites' prophecy will not be present in many copies. Most likely, this becomes another realm where hand-made fetches a much higher price than mass produced.

I still say the best way for Nicole to get a promotion is to get a few design schematics published in the Paradigma.

[Nicole Bouchard]

While 'distance' might become a fluid concept with Correspondence, the Mage still needs to know where the hell they're travelling to. As in, they'd need [for example] to know that Colin's a silversmith who can make foci and his shop location.

Mage society [as far as I can tell] has a serious relative lack of 'general information' regarding shopping. We have the likes of Google/Amazon/eBay/Etsy/etc, they don't. They don't even have our pre-interweb option of the likes of Yellow Pages etc [would be a security risk]. This means 'shopping' can be rather like shopping in the old USSR; it's not the size of your wallet which counts, but who you know and what places you can get 'access to'. Ergo; Horizon has the 'worth' as a shopping location.

As for products, it's not a handmade vs machine-made and never the two will meet situation; it's perfectly possible that some products are machine-made in batches, then hand-finished. To use the book situation again; the 'main text' of Akrites' prophecy is printed using mundane means, but the magical elements of it are produced by hand on several sheets of paper which are either bound into the main text or 'slotted in' at the front of it with a pouch - I've seen both methods done in books printed before c1975 [particularly in books before WWII].

[Warpmind]

Oh, I'm not arguing that handmade and machine-made won't have any overlap in Mage society. Just that there's bound to be a distinction between mass-produced and especially synthesized versus items that are made one at a time; handmade items can be made in an assembly line fashion, too, but you hit a point where there's less of a personal touch included in each individual item, regardless of whether it's hand-polished ivory or a 3d-printed PDA case. If it's a one-of-a-kind palmtop case simply 3d-printed by a Virtual Adept and hardly even needing a trimming after printing, chances are that's got far more personal investment than, say, wooden horse #7238 out of 20,000 identical carved horses made by manual whittling.

And the issue of The Fragile Path is one of cost and expedience, I think - the book was mass produced as a warning; it was simply too costly and cumbersome to embed the magical vision on the relevant page of every copy, but the footnote does say where one might get the whole experience in full.

[Nicole Bouchard]

Though some people wouldn't overly care about the 'personal touch'. And there's some things where the machine can produce items to a superior level to most people - glassware springing to mind [something which might be imported from Earth to Horizon].

Anyway, the other thing is that with the likes of Etherites, are there materials [books, CD-Roms, USB Sticks etc] going around which a shed-load of blueprints etc for basic inventions using off-the-shelf parts? A Scientific version what the likes of "Open Source Ecology" are trying to do?

[Warpmind]

Probably manuals and blueprints flying around from both the Etherites AND the Virtual Adepts. Heck, probably a few coming from Order of Hermes' House Thig, too, for that matter.

And the "personal touch" part is perhaps more important in Mage society owing to issues like personal investment; there's power in that. Heck, even for the Etherites, there's acknowledgment, however unspoken and subconscious it might be, where a machine made from standardized stock parts still has just enough of a personality owing to micro-differences in how snug seals fit and how hard bolts are tightened, where the owner knows just how to baby their beloved engine if it starts acting up. Not that an enlightened, rational Scientist would admit to such sentiment, of course... but I refer you to Mr. Spock in his first encounter with Tribbles.

And yes, there are a lot of things machines can make objectively better and faster than humans can, that was never the issue - the issue is one of subjectivity; for the people who care about these things (which does seem to include a lot of multicentennial Magi), something made with personal care and attention IS going to have inherently superior qualities to something made on an assembly line, qualities that just aren't going to be detectable with a micrometer.

[Nicole Bouchard]

That makes the assumption that everything benefits from having said personal investment...

I don't need to bond with a pencil, box of nails or razor-blades. Having such a bond can be a cramp in your normal life with other things; Nicole's 'workbook' would contain a lot less 'work' if they each cost over $40 [handmade], rather than the usual $4 machine-made ones [and she'd need another 'workbook' to work in before transferring the 'best bits']. The more 'expensive' an item is, the higher the feelings of 'mustn't waste it' - and if the price is high enough, it enters 'too valuable to use territory'. [I call it 'Grandma's dinner service syndrome']

Lastly, I personally don't feel Horizon would have folk churning out cheap handmade stuff. So, while I'd suspect the market [esp the used market] for handmade would be much larger than on Earth [esp if they had the pre-consumerist notions of 'buy items for three generations'], I think there would be some imports of cheap 'Earth stuff'.

My feelings, at least. It's all up to the Great One's ruling...

[Warpmind]

A Mage would likely form a much stronger bond with a 1,500$ handmade fountain pen than a box of Bics, but we're not really talking about consumables, are we?
We're talking about books that go on the shelf, to be referenced on occasion, or to be read with a measure of reverence, not the cheap paperback you buy to read on the flight, and then stuff into the magazine pocket in front of your seat once you're done, we're talking about the custom DMC DeLorean WITH the Flux Capacitor and Mr. Fusion attachments (actual time travel capacity notwithstanding), not the $14K Chevrolet Spark LT.
Grandma's Dinner Service Syndrome certainly can play into it, but you're right in that Horizon craftsmen would probably not churn out cheap handmade stuff, as there is canonically no poverty there. Cheap junk is pretty much a consequence of the darker side of capitalism - see Sam Vimes' Boots Theorem of Economic Inequality - but there's probably a decent trade in conjured cheap goods, all the same. There's a reason, after all, why Horizon has laws about labeling goods created with magic, and items that are more-or-less handmade from natural resources fetch a higher price.

I'd still be surprised if there wasn't some guy doing a brisk trade in importing Cuban cigars, or Chupa Chups, or even Bic lighters and pens, and other consumables of consistent (even if not particularly high) quality.

[Nicole Bouchard]

Which is what I'm thinking; that some of the products might be 'hand-finished'; aka factory-made items imported, then 'improved' by hand. Akin to Nicole buying a Spark and rebuilding it, or Colin buying basic silver items and then engraving/embellishing them.

As for 'no poverty', define poverty. The first type is 'absolute poverty' aka nobody is without food, a roof over their head etc and then there's 'relative poverty' aka your wealth level compared to those around you. I'm going to go on the premise that they mean the former; the only way the second is achieved is basically communism [as nobody can become 'richer' for everybody else would end up 'poor' in comparison].

It all comes down to basically, opportunity cost and competitive advantage. Sure, a mage could magick up a load of notebooks for Nicole to use but it would still 'cost' the mage's time and effort. Plus, there's only a few hundred mages on Horizon at any single point and quite a lot don't know how to make things appear from nothing. Their 'service fee' might make it 'cheaper' for 'Scribbler's Stationerium' to re-stock their biros, cheap notebooks etc from a consignment from a WH Smith's in London than pulled from a Mage's backside. Said 'consignments' could come in via the passenger transports, which could offset some of the fuel costs ["...the group from Steelhaven travel to Horizon, along with two boxes of pineapples, nails/screws, a load of magazines and thirty USB storage devices..."]. Would help give Earth cash a 'use' on Horizon too.

We also have to remember that products change depending where it is; here in the UK, American 'junk' products such as Snapple, Root Beer and Lucky Charms are in the 'premium' bracket as they've been imported and cost double our UK 'variants'. So, it's possible said 'Earth products' might occupy a similar niche on Horizon.

Not that I couldn't see a use for magicked up stuff. One idea I thought of was the 'clothes fitter'; where a mage could magikally 'tailor' the Earth-bought clothes to fit the wearer perfectly [which Nicole would love].

I think our 'visions' are almost identical; that Horizon is a combination of magicked, handmade, Earth-bought and everything in between.

In other news, would somebody like to inform Nicole on what's going on? Kinda don't have anything else to do IC until we go off to attack...

[Warpmind]

I quote the wiki's text on Horizon: "Poverty is nonexistent within the city and there is overall harmony among the populace, though as with any large community there are still incidents of petty crime and prejudice." From this phrasing, yeah, I'd say that means no-one is beneath the poverty line.

And yeah, exotic Earthside imports probably fetch a pretty penny on Horizon, but someone who imports Bic pens in bulk is probably going to see less of a profit margin per pen than, say, the guy who imports a few cases of Guinness every week.
Clothes fitting like you suggest is a pretty simple trick - I actually think Colin could do that now, at Matter 2 (though not permanently), if the idea occurred to him - though what you'd really want is clothes that are enchanted to always fit the owner, regardless of weight gain or loss...

[Nicole Bouchard]

Bic Crystals, perhaps not much; but what about Parker Jotters? Ballpoints offer advantages over fountains which Horizonites [?] wouldn't be blind to, and there wouldn't be much incentive or sense to re-invent the wheel...

But this gets me thinking; that there might be a kickback on Horizon from the locals towards the myriad of 'cultural contamination' coming from Earth; in a similar way that folk in RL rail against 'cultural imperialism' and suchlike coming from the global powers [usually the USA].

[Warpmind]

A valid point.

I do note that the kickback might be less against "cultural contamination" and more against "Technocratic corruption"; the Union does, after all, have a LOT of responsibility for the vast heaps of disposed disposable merchandise in the world.

[Nicole Bouchard]

Well, some RL folk do view the 'contamination' as 'corruption', or at least 'taint'... and for particularly old/paranoid Mages, their definition of 'carriers' might include 'all Earth-born mages under 100' and 'all technomancers' [like that Hermetic ghost IC...]

Another thing we've forgotten is that Horizon might export/import with other Umbrial realms too. Particularly as Horizon is 'very careful' to not over-exploit their own resources [which often leads to exploitation of other places, akin to people paying for a forest 200 miles away to be turned into planks so the woodland by their own homes remain standing].

[Nicole Bouchard]

One, still need an answer for the above question.

Two, you've forgotten my last post and left me behind; https://chantrysteelhaven.forumotion.com/t219p375-dinner-plans-sacrifices-and-qliphothic-exemplars-ic-thread-42#34700

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

Oops sorry. I will reply now. I have been a bit stressed lately.

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

Ok I have replied, again I am sorry for missing your post. What question where you wondering about? Whatever or not Horizon deals with other realms? Yes they do.

[Nicole Bouchard]

Basically, read from: https://chantrysteelhaven.forumotion.com/t173p625-downtime-planning-thread#34552

Warp and I have - I think - worked out a rather solid 'economic base' for Horizon and Chantries between us. It's a bit of a slog to read the conversation, but it might be an idea(s) you'll wish to use.

Plus, I do need to know how Etherite designs etc circulate around the Tradition apart from the pages of Paradigma etc. For example, is there a series of 'standard Scientific textbooks' out there which have a load of basic blueprints in them?

RE: Resources. WW stopped doing 'dollar amounts' on Resources by 4th, instead doing 'general descriptions'; and all the 4th Eras basically peg Resources 2 at 'skilled working class / lower middle class' which would be $35k - $60k. I'd utterly ignore the Book of Shadows on this.

First off, Colin's a business owner. I'd guestimate he'd be able to sell the shop 'as a going concern' for between $60k - $100k, and perhaps at a 'fire sale' get a third of this [for his tools etc]. Nicole's sorta in this boat too, as she's got a decent collection of mechanics tools etc - but for both of them this is the 'absolutely last ditch' as no tradesperson sells the items which earns their living.

Next, Colin's RAF pension. You said before he's been in the USA for 'twenty years', which means he arrived in 1995. This is critical, as UK state pensions don't get yearly inflation bumps if you live in the USA. I'd guestimate it's got a value of $7.5k right now [but is dependent on exchange rates; Brexit will cause it to shrink to $5.25k by 2017]. However, Colin may have taken the lump sum instead [esp if he had decided to immigrate and knew the 'zero increases' rule at the time].

You can disregard the 'shop costs', as the shop is an independent entity money-wise and it's up to Colin how much cash he draws out of the business as 'his pay' and how much he leaves in the company accounts.

Remember too that the Resources chart assumes you're paying 'market value' for things. As the Great One mentioned before, Steelhaven is rent controlled - I couldn't find a two-bed apartment for under $3k a month. If instead they're paying $2k a month, that's $12k more into Colin's wallet a year. [However, that's debatable; the Chantry might charge higher rent for those who 'can afford it' to subsidise those who can't, such as Serge and Fran].

While Colin can't count Freddie's income as his, however her contribution to the 'household finances' will help bump up Colin's 'standard of living', and Resources is a measure of that, not mere cash. If nothing else if they went 'halves' on the rent, that's another $12k freed up for spending on stuff a year.

One interesting thing is that you say 'disposable'. I'm looking at the Demon Core and it uses the same figures as Shadows - but without that word. At fag-packet level, it looks like Nick has about $250 a week 'disposable' - the rest being eaten by insurance, rent, food etc. Therefore, if Colin was on the same pay-grade, *but* had the above 'assistance' [+$12k for shared rent, +$7.5k from pension] this would push his 'disposable' up to ~$500 a week [after deducting 'kid costs'] which is approaching a 3-dot 'standard of living'.

Perhaps in the next Downtime Colin hires a proper accountant, starts writing off more as 'business expenses', learns a bit more about finances etc to push him over the limit?

As ever, merely a thought.

[Warpmind]

Yeah, the rates for quick liquidation were for quick liquidation, meaning "The Union's about to raid my shop and take everything anyway; I'll sell what I can and get the fuck outta dodge" would be the most plausible scenario for that. I would guess Colin could probably get substantially more for the shop if he sold it off at his leisure instead. Not that that is particularly likely for a few years yet. I'll not be ignoring the Book of Shadows entirely, though, as that's pretty much the source I have for it - I just have to take into account inflation, and I wind up not too far off, I should say.

And Colin is receiving the monthly pension - he wasn't sure he'd be permanently moving to the States when he came over; that decision came later, and he likely assumed (correctly or erroneously) that if he couldn't make it in the "Land of the Free" (and get his head fixed), he'd return home and receive the rate adjustments upon moving back. As it is, it's a small financial supplement, nothing more; he's not really too bothered by it not getting the annual increase.

I'm not counting the shop costs as part of Colin's private economy, but I'm not dismissing them entirely out of hand, either; more accurate to say I'm merely keeping them in mind as an abstract factor in why Colin's not taking a higher pay from the shop.

And right now, Freddy's still got her own apartment at Steelhaven (even if she might spend more time at Colin's), in part for medical reasons, so there goes a fair bit of her budget, too.

The Book of Shadows doesn't actually use the term "disposable cash", but "allowance", so that should probably be interpreted as what's left after utilities, groceries, rent, etc. In other words, disposable cash. I'd say for the purpose of this discussion, it comes down to the same thing in practice. In any case, I do believe the simple addition of an Artisan Silversmith certificate will give him the leeway to charge a bit more for his craftsmanship - even if he is a little liberal with offering discounts for special clients.

And Colin does have a quite good accountant, as it happens; he's rather found that to be highly necessary, owing to the byzantine tax laws in the US. He's got a good enough head for it, but he's happier paying for someone else to actually do the number crunching and cope with the ulcer.
But yeah, Colin's got quite impeccable records, even if there've been a few... unconventional exchanges (Tass) for his wares. He's worked it out.

[Nicole Bouchard]

Having watched too many 'Don't Pay...' episodes [where debt collectors come and steal your stuff] has taught me that for the likes of shops like Colins, the vast majority of the 'value' is in the stock and raw materials. Which being silver etc is much more easily pawnable than say Nicole's automotive gear. Plus, also depends on who Colin can call on at The Moment; if he knows a few other jewellers etc he might be able to quickly sell his stock/raw materials/tools at a better price than the pawn shop.

No, no 'backdated adjustments' if he moved back to the UK. Basically, if Colin moved to the USA in 1995 he'd be receiving to the penny the '1995 rate' until he was in the UK as a resident in which he'd get '1995 + the % increase due this year'. Yeah, HM Treasury being their usual tightarse selves...

Well, if Colin's skill is becoming better-known, perhaps he's more branched out into antique stuff? After all, several institutions / museums / galleries have silverware, and they're the sorts who'd pay top-whack for restorations [and a L4 is 'one of the best in the region' level].

Another option is that he's somehow managed to have picked up a retainer from an insurance company to perform valuations for policies.

Either of these might require Colin getting an assistant, mind...

[Warpmind]

As I said, Colin may well have erroneously assumed the pension would be adjusted on his return to the UK when he initially moved. But he might not have believed the move to be permanent at the time, either. And then inclusion happened, and he got things moving before too much inflation happened.

Letting the museums borrow the Dalisse Collection for display might well help as an advertising tool, too - after all, he did get a pretty impressive collection of rings from various eras from the pretty fish lady who can't wear rings. The museums and private collectors would likely take notice of that.

And an assistant isn't an entirely unlikely prospect; might pick up a willing Mage or Hedge Wizard for that, once word of Crexia's completed apprenticeship gets around. That should have some advertising effect, at least.

[Nicole Bouchard]

Yeah, HM Govt properly "leoparded" the pension thing; while they didn't keep it a secret, nor did they tell anybody about it, make it easily to learn or even provide the information in a manner which normal people understood what they were reading. It came out with the whole Brexit mess; turns out that it's only EU regs which allow them pensioners in the Costa del Sol to get their increases [I'm *so* weeping for the Leave-voting pensioners being hurt from this... *evil smirk*]

Think a Sleeper assistant/apprentice is more likely; in fact it may be part of the rules of getting that Artisan certification...

[Warpmind]

Actually, I think the Artisan certification *allows* getting an apprentice. Old-fashioned Guild rules, you know...

[Nicole Bouchard]

Another thing which I've just realised; if Colin starts working with museums etc it could also be plied into Contacts; it's estimated that *at best* a museum has 10% of their objects on display [5% is more common]. While some of this will be pieces which can't be displayed, others might be items which 'don't make sense' to the curators or even are still sitting in the packing crates from when they were donated...

[Warpmind]

Good point. Something that can be invested in and cultivated at a later point; I'm sure Colin's "insights" into the historical purposes ("it's for ritual purposes" won't fly there - unless the items were, in fact, a Mage's Foci) of assorted trinkets would be appreciated on occasion, and his ability to restore precious silver at an agreeable rate even more so.

I can see it now...

"Oh, hey, you know that pile of semiprecious stones you had lying in that box in storage room 17?"
"What about them?"
"As stones, they're worth about $80 by the kilogram, and by the looks of them, they've been polished for setting in jewelry and the like, but never actually used. While they might be from around the Renaissance, the stones themselves are out of fashion by several centuries, largely thanks to DeBeers and the like. I can take them off your hands for, say, $700, since I can at least make use of them."
"...That's a box of almost twenty pounds of worthless rocks, and you're willing to pay for taking them off our hands?"
"Yes. Renassance festival costumers love the authentic look, so I can at least make use of them. Better than taking up space, right?"

Later that day...
"Colin, how did you get your hands on 1200 drams of Tass?"

[Sponsored content]