Re: The OOC Discussion Thread

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

Agreed that seams about right.

[Nicole Bouchard]

I have no idea how such a system work, but unless that then risk the Chantry just being sold off or risk the Deacon Council loosing control over the Chantry that sounds like a good solution. However if that means the Deacons loose control of the Chantry the building will remain oficially owned by the Deacon Primus. Also I am sure each older Master have set up some sort of solution to have a persona set up in sleeper society. I have never worked out exactly who have such a persona and who do not as it is allot of work and is completely not important to the story at this point.

It will be as secure as it realistically can be, but limits the tax issues etc. Stronger than actual outright ownership, at least. As I said before, this is how alot of 'old money' in America organises it's wealth. We can effectively handwave the little details; as you say, it's not important.

I am sure most who live on earth have some sort of persona set up and pay taxes it have never been something I have worked out since it is not really something important to the story I just assume they have some sort of system in place, some cover story that hide that they are like 300 years old.

Yes, on all counts. Just that some 'creative accounting' [Fortunae accounting?] can, like above sort things out so you don't have to keep on paying tax for 'inheriting from yourself' repeatedly. I can imagine that like most elder vampires, most elder Awakened have accumulated some 'investments' over decades/centuries which now provide a decent Resources stream passively.

Hiering someone from Horizon is quite possible to do if Nicole can convince the Deacon Council.

She's not sure the idea will add up money-wise. Her goal is to sell the idea to Colin, and rely on him doing the convincing [as in, the principle of the idea - the maths will still need to be worked out].

You are thinking all the Chantries in the Tribunal have the same person who help out with accoutning and taxes that know about mages and just generally work for the mages of the Boston Tribunal? Well that is quite possible.

It's possible. Might be the one who also handles Lux Itineris [didn't see the need to change when SH 'broke off'?] Just that having some bloodless Sleeper lawyer or accountant as the front is pretty normal in the USA. To them, the 'Steelhaven Organisation' [or whatever] is 'just another client' and has zero interest past that.

...but there are fewer angles of attack for, say, greedy entrepreneurs wanting the whole city block to plonk down a new skyscraper or something.

I can answer that one. Gift covenants. SH building was 'given' to the trust/etc back in [say] 1972 with the proviso that it remains with the current name, use and 'general appearance'. And the last person who could legally break the covenant 'died' in 1995.* It may even be written in that if by accident SH was destroyed by 'act of God', it has to be re-built as is. Won't stop Uncle Sam wanting to demolish SH for say, a freeway but hell nothing really would.

* Happens in RL quite often, apparently. Many American museums are lumbered with 'donations' which they can neither show, return, sell or even destroy. It's becoming quite a cost issue for some. They can't even say, leave them out of the rain to allow the elements to destroy it for them.

[Warpmind]

Hm, seems the US museums need to lobby for a law change permitting the "proper use" of donated pieces, then - a museum having pieces they can only keep stuck in a vault somewhere without being allowed to display them is stupid...

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

It will be as secure as it realistically can be, but limits the tax issues etc. Stronger than actual outright ownership, at least. As I said before, this is how alot of 'old money' in America organises it's wealth. We can effectively handwave the little details; as you say, it's not important.

It is not really important, that the Deacons have gotten the building from Master Steelhaven and they have the paperwork in order should be enough there is no need to spend hours to read up on American tax and codes on owning buildings in order to say they have this apartment building all is well.

Yes, on all counts. Just that some 'creative accounting' [Fortunae accounting?] can, like above sort things out so you don't have to keep on paying tax for 'inheriting from yourself' repeatedly. I can imagine that like most elder vampires, most elder Awakened have accumulated some 'investments' over decades/centuries which now provide a decent Resources stream passively.

Several groups well versed in sleeper ta laws and laws generally probably offer their services for this, Virtual Adepts, House Fortunae and a few others as well so yes keep inheriting yourself is probably a solution many use.

She's not sure the idea will add up money-wise. Her goal is to sell the idea to Colin, and rely on him doing the convincing [as in, the principle of the idea - the maths will still need to be worked out].

That works.

It's possible. Might be the one who also handles Lux Itineris [didn't see the need to change when SH 'broke off'?] Just that having some bloodless Sleeper lawyer or accountant as the front is pretty normal in the USA. To them, the 'Steelhaven Organisation' [or whatever] is 'just another client' and has zero interest past that.

Both is possible I have never put much time into think about how Steelhaven do accounting. I just assume their paperwork is fine as it is nto really an important part of the game, nor is it a subject I know much about or have much interest in so I did nto see the need to spend allot of time on it but sure they can have a sleeper lawyer they use to keep the books.

[Nicole Bouchard]

It is not really important, that the Deacons have gotten the building from Master Steelhaven and they have the paperwork in order should be enough there is no need to spend hours to read up on American tax and codes on owning buildings in order to say they have this apartment building all is well.

Never said you should? Or need to? As you said, the technical terms etc are not important, so you can simply take my word for it that organising it all as a nonprofit is fine and was done some time ago, yes?

Several groups well versed in sleeper ta laws and laws generally probably offer their services for this, Virtual Adepts, House Fortunae and a few others as well so yes keep inheriting yourself is probably a solution many use.

Low level inheritances are fine, big ones are not. If the Old Man was to 'inherit' himself he'd end up paying lots of tax. That's where the trust comes in. A way to transfer wealth to your descendents [or yourself, in this case] without paying pesky taxes. [Where do you think the term 'trust fund baby' comes from?]

Both is possible I have never put much time into think about how Steelhaven do accounting. I just assume their paperwork is fine as it is nto really an important part of the game, nor is it a subject I know much about or have much interest in so I did nto see the need to spend allot of time on it but sure they can have a sleeper lawyer they use to keep the books.

And normally, it isn't [important]. But if one of the PCs is going to propose the hiring of a Muggle manager it's kinda good to work out what their roles/duties would be; and if SH already have a Sleeper lawyer managing the Sleeper end this makes hiring a Horizonite more viable.

Hm, seems the US museums need to lobby for a law change permitting the "proper use" of donated pieces, then - a museum having pieces they can only keep stuck in a vault somewhere without being allowed to display them is stupid...

Well, the reason(s) for the non-use vary. Some donations were 'job lots' where the minor pieces are no longer desired, others turned out [much later] to be fakes and cannot be shown at all. Some are... uncomfortable objects, like jingoistic paintings celebrating things like 19th Century colonialism. The artist themselves might be been 'nonpersoned' due to views, actions or crimes.

Problem is, many of the larger, older gifts came with caveats/conditions attached. That's a legal agreement, which cannot be broken with ease. Anglo societies generally don't change laws retrospectively - the old contracts will continue to be valid ['grandfather clause' etc] as long as they're not broken. And there's a huge incentive to not do any retrospective rule-changes because slicing the 'tape' for museums will also screw up lots of the old trusts/nonprofits which millionaires organised to protect their wealth from the IRS...

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

Never said you should? Or need to? As you said, the technical terms etc are not important, so you can simply take my word for it that organising it all as a nonprofit is fine and was done some time ago, yes?

My point is that this is not really a detail that need to be sorted out it is not relebant for the story. But sure it can be arranged the way you suggjest as long as that do not mean the Deacons have less control of the building.

Low level inheritances are fine, big ones are not. If the Old Man was to 'inherit' himself he'd end up paying lots of tax. That's where the trust comes in. A way to transfer wealth to your descendents [or yourself, in this case] without paying pesky taxes. [Where do you think the term 'trust fund baby' comes from?]

I just assume thing are arranged in a way that works, as I said exactly how Steelhave handle it's taxes is nto relevant for the story what so ever. This is not a street level campaign so details like that is just not relevant, I just assume they ahve a way to do it that works.

And normally, it isn't [important]. But if one of the PCs is going to propose the hiring of a Muggle manager it's kinda good to work out what their roles/duties would be; and if SH already have a Sleeper lawyer managing the Sleeper end this makes hiring a Horizonite more viable.

Well then I guess we will go with someone from Horizon.

[Nicole Bouchard]

- Well, I basically only know this stuff because I had a chat about this very situation in a VtM game a few years back and an elder mage in the realms of ID/money etc suffers many of the same problems as an elder vampire.

- As for going with a Horizonite, well that's up to you, ultimately [as it will be ultimately a Deacon choice]. But there's other options, as Warp has pointed out [plus there might be existing residents who might have sufficient free time to do the job].

- In other topics; have you heard anything more from the other two possible new players?

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

Absolutely a old mage who live mostly on Earth will have the same problems as an old vampire they will need some way to keep a workable identity since they can nto have a passport that say they are 300 years old and born on another realm of existence.

There are three candidtate two of which are at the Chantry who might take on the job or one can be hired from Horizon, let us see whent he suggjestion come up in game how the chips falls on that one.

Nope I have nto so I suspect they elft, one out of three was about what I could expect, perhaps we should go fishing for one more player to get some life and movement back into the game.

[Warpmind]

Ah, yes, old paperwork...
"Sir, are you sure this address is correct?"
"Uh, probably?"
"Sir, the Austrio-Hungarian Empire dissolved in 1918?"
"Eh, I come from a long line of people who are sloppy at updating their public records..."

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

Hehehe yeah something like that indeed.

[Nicole Bouchard]

- That reminds me of a scandal that happened in Japan about a decade ago; an incident turned up that a ~110 year-old was in fact dead, and had been since the 1980s [reason: pension fraud by daughter]. This spurred a wholesale investigation, and it turned out that thousands of alleged 'centenarians' remained merely on the books merely because nobody had reported them dead [for various reasons]. In one startling case, a man 'aged' 163 was still getting an pension paid into a bank account which had last been touched during WW2.

- Well, the pedantic part of me questions whether one can leave before they've joined the game... but that's not really important. Anyway, I have an idea instead of trying to get a new player right now, though I don't think it will be popular...

That we use this 'quiet spell' to get a bit of the game's blue-booking done. You've been saying for years you'd like to do a full, updated NPC list, the 'other Chantries' list has never been updated since it was first done, some sub-forums could do with a little bit of a sort/prune and so on. And while I can't obviously speak for others, I would be up for going through one of the old IC threads or two to say, dig out all the named NPCs from the past...

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

That is one crazy story but yeah I can see that happening.

Well updating the named NPC list would be helpful. I can not say how much I can do but a tread or two sure.

[Nicole Bouchard]

- The woman got caught by a combo of her greed and the desire of local politicians wanting cheap PR; he'd become the oldest man in the region [I think] and they wanted to shove him on TV for 'elder day' or something. Got suspicious when woman kept on saying no. Incident described as a 'one off' [these things often are] but when journalists etc started digging found more and more examples of this - mainly honest mistakes where no human investigated and system expected relatives to inform them of death [thus, unprepared for situations where there are no living relatives or they're cut off].

- This is my provisional maintenance 'job sheet'... [in no order of importance]

#1: Full, updated NPC list to replace This One. New one is then stickied at top of that sub-forum and old one deleted.

#2: Full, updated 'Other Chantries' list to replace This One. New one is then stickied to top of sub-forum and old one deleted. Personally feel that two changes should be made; a) new list contains all other chantries and b) thread is moved from 'Char & NPCs' to 'Game Related OOC' and stickied.

#3: Creation of new sticky post in 'Game Related OOC' titled 'Chantry Steelhaven Hall' in which the physical description, Warp's sketch drawing, description of facilities etc are all in one place. At the moment, they're dotted around in various threads and in regards to the description of facilities, don't think they exist at all.

#4: Creation of new sticky post in 'Game Related OOC' titled something like 'Other Locations of Note' where places like known Garou cearns, Colin's shop, Umbrial port etc are noted down.

The forum *could* do with a little prune of the now unneeded OOC etc, but that's a cosmetic thing. But I feel doing the four above will be very helpful for not just you and us [I for example am not sure of the *complete* membership of the PC cabal...], but any new players who desire to join [will allow them to get up to speed quicker].

It will be a large task. I do not pretend otherwise. It's why you've been putting it off [hell, anyone would]. But I believe that a 'quiet spell' like now is the best time to do it. Plus, if we players pitch in a bit too [for it's mainly a search/collation job] it will be much quicker.

Thoughts, complaints?

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

- The woman got caught by a combo of her greed and the desire of local politicians wanting cheap PR; he'd become the oldest man in the region [I think] and they wanted to shove him on TV for 'elder day' or something. Got suspicious when woman kept on saying no. Incident described as a 'one off' [these things often are] but when journalists etc started digging found more and more examples of this - mainly honest mistakes where no human investigated and system expected relatives to inform them of death [thus, unprepared for situations where there are no living relatives or they're cut off].

That is a interesting and creepy little tidbit.

#1: Full, updated NPC list to replace This One. New one is then stickied at top of that sub-forum and old one deleted.

Should this be done yes, should the game be mroe on less on pause while it is trudged through no. At least for me tedious work of going through and reading hundred of pages long threads going through them with a fine comb to get all the NPCs that have been mentioned takes mroe spoons than I have and by the time that was done the game would be dead. I appriciate help getting a few pages gone through now and again to update the list, that would be awzome but sitting down hour after hower with this is not something I can do, I have depression and there is a reaosn why I am on disability. I am not able to sit with tedious work like this hour after hour after hour and I see it as more important to have a active game with a story being told than ahve all the paperwork in order.

I do agree this would be a good long term project though.

#2: Full, updated 'Other Chantries' list to replace This One. New one is then stickied to top of sub-forum and old one deleted. Personally feel that two changes should be made; a) new list contains all other chantries and b) thread is moved from 'Char & NPCs' to 'Game Related OOC' and stickied.

There is no need to delete old posts, but getting a list done of other Chantries and posting it to the OOC is doable.

#3: Creation of new sticky post in 'Game Related OOC' titled 'Chantry Steelhaven Hall' in which the physical description, Warp's sketch drawing, description of facilities etc are all in one place. At the moment, they're dotted around in various threads and in regards to the description of facilities, don't think they exist at all.

That is a good idea.

[quote][#4: Creation of new sticky post in 'Game Related OOC' titled something like 'Other Locations of Note' where places like known Garou cearns, Colin's shop, Umbrial port etc are noted down./quote]

This is also a good idea.

The forum *could* do with a little prune of the now unneeded OOC etc, but that's a cosmetic thing. But I feel doing the four above will be very helpful for not just you and us [I for example am not sure of the *complete* membership of the PC cabal...], but any new players who desire to join [will allow them to get up to speed quicker].

Unless there is a maximum post count we are nearing I like having old posts there and see no need to delete them. The above lists are a good idea to create though.

It will be a large task. I do not pretend otherwise. It's why you've been putting it off [hell, anyone would]. But I believe that a 'quiet spell' like now is the best time to do it. Plus, if we players pitch in a bit too [for it's mainly a search/collation job] it will be much quicker.

I can tell you right now that I can not get all of this done while a quiet spell lasts, if I was to get this done before doing something about a quiet spell then the game would die. I have only so many spoons and this is far to overwealming a task, sitting hour after houer with paperwork do nto work with me but as a slow project while getting the game back on track I agree it is a good idea.

[Nicole Bouchard]

- I didn't anticipate, expect or want the game to be paused while we're doing the maintenence. As both you and I have said, this would be a long term project. We may not get it done over the quiet spell, but it's very possible we could make a good dent in it.

- The best method [in my experience] is to slice up the 'big tasks' into a series of much smaller tasks. So, intead of 'search through all IC for references for other Chantries' it becomes 'search IC #27 for references of other Chantries'. A page here, a page there - over time the tasks are *gradually* completed.

In fact, doing a trawl of IC is the last stage [at least in my book].

- I proposed the deleting of the old editions of #1 and #2 [once we're done with them] because they will be completely obsolete once the new editions are done. It's only good to remove them after they have *zero* value left and so others don't get confused by seemingly multiple copies of the same thing.

Well, what do the other players think of this? Us two can't do all this alone...

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

Getting started on it is a good idea and we will see how far we get during the quiet spell.

I agree doing it gradually is doable.

I can also begin posting to the list of characters when enw named characters show up in game.

[Warpmind]

Agreed; definitely a team effort.

I'll see what I can get around to, NPC- and location-wise.

I suggest when someone starts scanning a thread, they make note of it here/a coordination thread to avoid duplicating the work?

[Jeremy Silverstein]

Cleaning up some bits of the forum would be handy.

I'll try and help however I can.

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

Having a planning thread where we post information found temporarily to keep track of what is being done is a good idea.

Thank you all your guy's help I will see what I can get done.

[Nicole Bouchard]

Said thread is here:

https://chantrysteelhaven.forumotion.com/t259-forum-update-working-thread#43893

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

Looks good.

[Morrigan]

Ugh. I'm sorry everyone. I got behind. And now there's so much to catch up on I can't catch up.

I'm trying to get up to speed this weekend.

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

The only seen your character is in are the trip to clean up the old hospital with Nicole and Serge and it have not been continued while you was away so no problem at all, you can just right back into that.

[Nicole Bouchard]

Last Serge IC reply: https://chantrysteelhaven.forumotion.com/t258p550-welcoming-morrigan-leaving-the-labyrinth-and-well-earned-rest-ic-thread-53#43814

Last Nick IC reply: https://chantrysteelhaven.forumotion.com/t258p550-welcoming-morrigan-leaving-the-labyrinth-and-well-earned-rest-ic-thread-53#43818

[Morrigan]

Thanks, Nicole. That's very helpful.

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