Re: The OOC Discussion Thread

[Nicole Bouchard]

Y'welcome.

You can also use the 'last posts by [account]' facility [this is the one for you: https://chantrysteelhaven.forumotion.com/spa/Morrigan] then lick on the link at the top of said post to find out where 'you need to start from' or whatever.

[Nicole Bouchard]

The 'Pilot' debate in one place;

It's mentioned in the blurb that the Ethernaut Academy trained Scientists in flight and so on; was thinking she might have been taught at least the rudiments. The fact she's not mentioned this IC is simple; Nick's 'impostor syndrome'. So the question comes down to crunch again; can you fly in the Umbra with 'Pilot' alone or not? And if so, I assume this means 'Umbrial Pilot' merely decreases the difficulty rolls in doing it (like we agreed with the Streetwise/Scrounging issue). Lastly, could Nick 'get by' on 'Pilot' + 'Hypertech'?

I'd say "Pilot Umbral Ship" is the sole skill for, well, what it says on the tin, not relying on mundane piloting skills, simply because the fundamentals of steering and navigation are incompatible. That said, some craft, like umbral fighter craft, will use regular piloting for such things as combat maneuvers above Horizon. For the shuttle, though, I wouldn't say there'd be any use for regular Piloting skills. Hypertech, on the other hand, would be just what the doctor ordered for repairs and upgrades.

I'd argue it's not completely incompatable. They're heavier-than-'air' powered craft which move in three directions and have limited locations for landing. If a 50cc moped, a 44-ton lorry and an Formula 1 car can all be 'Drive', then an Umbrial shuttle can sit in a category with a Spitfire, a 737 and a Huey. The 'differences' with an Umbrial craft can be represented by an upping of the difficulty rating, which is conveniently cancelled out by Colin's Umbrial Pilot dots.

We agreed this type of method when Nick got her 'Scrounge' Secondary, to stop her actually losing roll pools due to the fact we'd stop using Streetwise.

I think we've laid out the two sides of the issue; time for Great One to make the call. I just want to make sure both Nick and Colin are using the same system for this.

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

You do nto fly in a Umbral ship with Pilot alone. The Umbra do not function as the physical world, for example there are no left and right and up and down it is all correspondences and associations. For a technomagical Umbral ship some of the controls will be similar to a mundane spacecraft or even a plane but that is as far as the similarity go.

I would say you use it's own secondary skill to navigate and move a craft around in the Umbra, it makes no sense otherwise. For that matter if you are a pilot that do not mean you can just start flying a rocket ship for NASA either there are some fundementals that are the same but it still needs special training, the Umbra is far more alien to move around in than outher space is.

[Warpmind]

The thing is that mundane aircraft move in three (well, four, but only in one direction and at a fixed rate for the fourth one) dimensions, Umbral Craft move in all the dimensions above that... not exactly through time and space, but everywhere else.

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

Indeed and even such dimensions are iffy in the Umbra it is more move towards cold until you are butterflies then move towards cookies then take left.

[Nicole Bouchard]

Yet... NASA pilots do start their training on aircraft. In fact, many are poached from the Air Force. If there was no overlap... why would they do that?

The point I was arguing was that a character with 'Pilot' is at quite a bit closer in understanding how to pilot in the Umbra than one without it. Just like a person with decent familiarity with automobiles is closer in understanding how to drive a tank - there's lots of differences, but some overlaps too.

It may 'make no sense' but hell, most of the Character Sheet categories don't. The issue is a simple one; Pilot is a skill with pretty limited use, and Umbrial Pilot even less so. I thought it would be a nice flavour thing that Nick with a single dot in 'Pilot' would be at be able to in a pinch hold the shuttle steady in flight, emergency land a Cessna and so on.

[Anyway, I thought the Umbra only got really wonky 'no up no down etc' when you'd got well into the Deeper layers. That at the shallower end [like the Preumbra] it was actually somewhat similar to Mundie reality. At least, that's my understanding of it, but admittedly my understanding of the Umbra mainly derives from WtA and those STs always played the Prumbra etc like that.]

[Warpmind]

Well, when Colin had to learn navigating the near Umbra just to get around Boston's shadow, he had to aim for associations, rather than cardinal directions. Toward roses like the bush in his apartment, toward the stack of books like the Chantry library, toward the stack of tin cans since it's a Hermetic Chantry, and there's the medieval castle.

(Okay, maybe not the tin cans, specifically, but you get the idea.)

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

Yet... NASA pilots do start their training on aircraft. In fact, many are poached from the Air Force. If there was no overlap... why would they do that?

Yes on Umbra Ships made by some types of Technomancers the contorls might resemble mundate crafts but that is as far as the similarities go, traveling the Umbra is not the same as traveling in a realm. Also a Umbra ship might also be a old frigatte or a car or a big living forest, the overlap is very slight.

The point I was arguing was that a character with 'Pilot' is at quite a bit closer in understanding how to pilot in the Umbra than one without it. Just like a person with decent familiarity with automobiles is closer in understanding how to drive a tank - there's lots of differences, but some overlaps too.

So if you can drive a car, you will be able to navigate a car shaped thing through space that have no up, down, left right any actual length or any dimensions you are used to save time? Sorry i do not see that. You might as well say a chef can just pick up the Life Sphere and be a Verbena after all both handle knives.

It may 'make no sense' but hell, most of the Character Sheet categories don't. The issue is a simple one; Pilot is a skill with pretty limited use, and Umbrial Pilot even less so. I thought it would be a nice flavour thing that Nick with a single dot in 'Pilot' would be at be able to in a pinch hold the shuttle steady in flight, emergency land a Cessna and so on.

Well she would be familliar with the controls and could be able to handle the shuttle in real space when it enter a realm no problem but she do not know how to navigate the Umbra or fly in the Umbra. Also secondary skills are rather limited in scope that is why they are secondary skills.

[Anyway, I thought the Umbra only got really wonky 'no up no down etc' when you'd got well into the Deeper layers. That at the shallower end [like the Preumbra] it was actually somewhat similar to Mundie reality. At least, that's my understanding of it, but admittedly my understanding of the Umbra mainly derives from WtA and those STs always played the Prumbra etc like that.]

The Penumbra have normal dimensions for the most part so yes you ould fly something in the Penumbra even without knowing how to Navigate in the Umbra, it is just a shadow of mundane relaity. But you need to get allot deeper than that to go to anything but private pocket realms. Yes even withotu the ability to pilote a Umbra craft one could probably fly the shuttle around in the Penumbra not a problem, the skill is generally more of use to deeper areas and actually going anywhere witht he shuttle.

[Nicole Bouchard]

Well, when Colin had to learn navigating the near Umbra just to get around Boston's shadow, he had to aim for associations, rather than cardinal directions. Toward roses like the bush in his apartment, toward the stack of books like the Chantry library, toward the stack of tin cans since it's a Hermetic Chantry, and there's the medieval castle.

In a similar manner a mundane pilot might have to 're-learn' flying without air traffic control, using physical landmarks instead of GPS positioning or 'downgrading' from a HUD and digital displays to one of glass windows and analogue dials?

Yes on Umbra Ships made by some types of Technomancers the contorls might resemble mundate crafts but that is as far as the similarities go, traveling the Umbra is not the same as traveling in a realm. Also a Umbra ship might also be a old frigatte or a car or a big living forest, the overlap is very slight.

Then you up the difficulty rating if it's something 'you're not familiar with'?

So if you can drive a car, you will be able to navigate a car shaped thing through space that have no up, down, left right any actual length or any dimensions you are used to save time? Sorry i do not see that. You might as well say a chef can just pick up the Life Sphere and be a Verbena after all both handle knives.

Erm... no? Because I never said that?

The Penumbra have normal dimensions for the most part so yes you ould fly something in the Penumbra even without knowing how to Navigate in the Umbra, it is just a shadow of mundane relaity. But you need to get allot deeper than that to go to anything but private pocket realms. Yes even withotu the ability to pilote a Umbra craft one could probably fly the shuttle around in the Penumbra not a problem, the skill is generally more of use to deeper areas and actually going anywhere witht he shuttle.

I was under the impression that was as far as most Awakened get; the deeper realms are strange, uncharted and dangerous. Needing a special skill for that makes 100% sense.

In that case, perhaps Nick's 'Pilot' can cover a very basic familiary with 'Near Umbra' flight, but no way either 'Deep Umbra' or flying the more strange craft seen around?

[Nicole Bouchard]

Like a bad penny, I have returned - with the same questions!

I am still waiting for an answer re Secondaries. And no, 'I'll deal with the issue as/when it comes up' is not acceptable. I want to be *sure* that a person with a Secondary gets a reward for it vs the person without it.

I am still waiting for an answer re Military Science being a 'legitimate field of study' for the Etherites. This answer is vital knowing how Nick can get promoted.

And I am getting sick and tired of repeatedly asking the same question and just getting told 'another day'.

[Wouldn't it be *nice* to finally deal with the penny, rather than seeing it come back in March? I actually think you've expended more time/effort kicking the thing away (again) than it would have been to sort it forever...]

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

I have replied again and again the definitivexanswer for all secobdaries you want do not exist just ask if there is a secondary you want for your character and we will find out how that works.

[Nicole Bouchard]

Why can't it exist? I already have a system on-hand which could be used.

You won't even tell me how having my current secondaries have an advantage over not having them, so why should I reach for any more? I actually asked you *this* question at least twice and you don't answer this either.

Plus;

I am still waiting for an answer re Military Science being a 'legitimate field of study' for the Etherites. This answer is vital knowing how Nick can get promoted.

But let's try to break this damn circle once and for all. If you 'do not have the spoons' to deal with either/both of these two issues, why don't you delegate it to Warp and I, and we can knock together an easy answer for both and then you can approve/deny it?

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

I have said again and again let us discuss spesific secondaries. they do not all fit into the same system and that is just how it is.

By all means if you and Warp can actually agree on a system for secondaries I will look it over.

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