Forum Update Working Thread

[Nicole Bouchard]

As suggested, a temp 'working thread' for the clean-up/update of the forum. So once the whole thing is done, we can bin this whole thread...

First, the current 'job list' as it stands;

#1: Full, updated NPC list to replace This One. New one is then stickied at top of that sub-forum and old one deleted.

#2: Full, updated 'Other Chantries' list to replace This One. New one is then stickied to top of sub-forum and old one deleted. Personally feel that two changes should be made; a) new list contains all other chantries and b) thread is moved from 'Char & NPCs' to 'Game Related OOC' and stickied.

#3: Creation of new sticky post in 'Game Related OOC' titled 'Chantry Steelhaven Hall' in which the physical description, Warp's sketch drawing, description of facilities etc are all in one place. At the moment, they're dotted around in various threads and in regards to the description of facilities, don't think they exist at all.

#4: Creation of new sticky post in 'Game Related OOC' titled something like 'Other Locations of Note' where places like known Garou cearns, Colin's shop, Umbrial port etc are noted down.

Does anyone have any suggested additions to this list?

Secondly, the method we handle this. I suggest we simply tackle one point at a time, starting with the easiest - in my opinion, is #2. That we leave the - frankly, monster - job of the 'IC thread trawl' until the end; when we know for sure *all* the things we're searching for [and thus, don't miss anything or have to repeat anything].

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

That sounds like a good idea.

[Nicole Bouchard]

Well, before we start, does Warp or Jeremy have any other suggested things for the Job List?

[Jeremy Silverstein]

A small thread with the various rule quirks of this particular game could be nice. Although the only one I can think of is that we use the old form of Correspondence rather than the M20 form.


And a thread title 'Story so Far' in 'Game Related OOC' that contain the MAJOR plot relevant details. Although that one isn't the most necessary and may be a little too difficult for the little benefit it would provide.

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

We also have Heart Beasts from Ars Magica as a 5pt Merit someone can take.

A story so far thread is a good idea.

[Warpmind]

I'd suggest combining the "other Chantries" list with "Other Locations" list, actually - if that's *just* a short list of locations and brief descriptions, there's little benefit to separating the two into different threads. Just make a clear delineation between the two lists in the same post, maybe?

Alternatively, set something up in Homebrewery or something and link to it directly, as an easier-to-read format for it? Just a thought.

I'd want to do more right away for the cause, but at the moment, I am overly fatigued thanks to frozen shoulder.

I'll pipe up once I have the surplus energy to start trawling the threads.

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

'd suggest combining the "other Chantries" list with "Other Locations" list, actually - if that's *just* a short list of locations and brief descriptions, there's little benefit to separating the two into different threads. Just make a clear delineation between the two lists in the same post, maybe?

We could have a locations of interest thing that include Chantries, perhaps seperated into cities so Boston and surrounding towns, Chicago, Seattle, Horizon and well future locations perhaps.

Alternatively, set something up in Homebrewery or something and link to it directly, as an easier-to-read format for it? Just a thought.

That would look better but either method works for me.

I'd want to do more right away for the cause, but at the moment, I am overly fatigued thanks to frozen shoulder.

Take care of yourself. I have not been able to get started on this either I have been a bit tired lately.

I'll pipe up once I have the surplus energy to start trawling the threads.

Sounds good.

[Nicole Bouchard]

A small thread with the various rule quirks of this particular game could be nice. Although the only one I can think of is that we use the old form of Correspondence rather than the M20 form.

I agree, a 'House Rules & Rulings' would make sense. Another I *think* exists is that some Secondary Abilities merely reduce the difficulty rolls in things to stop the 'Lawful Stupid' situation that buying a Secondary can make your roll-pools smaller. [A topic currently being discussed elsewhere...]

And a thread title 'Story so Far' in 'Game Related OOC' that contain the MAJOR plot relevant details. Although that one isn't the most necessary and may be a little too difficult for the little benefit it would provide.

Great One's already done much of the heavy lifting on this one, actually; the 'end of thread roundups' which I admittedly thought was pointless at first sight but now see the worth of. Now, it's possible that somebody could collate all of them, add a touch of formatting to 'stitch together' the ~40 posts into a single body and so on, but I don't really see much benefit of doing that. At least not for the effort it would take.

I'd suggest combining the "other Chantries" list with "Other Locations" list, actually - if that's *just* a short list of locations and brief descriptions, there's little benefit to separating the two into different threads. Just make a clear delineation between the two lists in the same post, maybe?

We could do two posts in the 'Other Locations' list; #1 being the Chantries, #2 being the Others. Works better that way, actually. Or we could divide it by location, not type. I personally like the type division, but this ain't my call.

I'll pipe up once I have the surplus energy to start trawling the threads.

Was thinking that would be the last phase [it is the most labourious...]. I actually think between the four of us, we will remember quite a lot or have it noted down somewhere. Plus, the 'law of diminishing returns' suggests in this case, the stuff we do already remember *are* the most important bits and thus, the ones most needing noting down.

I have also given a little thought on PC recruitment. I know Great One has expressed a desire for a 5th to join us, and feel that perhaps the start of the Horizon story arc is the best time. If nothing else, it allows easier insertion into the chronicle.

Therefore, we should set ourselves a soft goal to have at least the 'bare bones' of the tasks done by that point [the thread-scans will take an age, so can be slowly done over months] to ease the newbie into the chronicle easier.


On the task itself, I still think starting with the locations is the best [least of them, for starters]. If Great One would define whether they'd like the locations divided by type or location, we can start...

[Warpmind]

Honestly, for thread-trawling, there's little point in not noting down people and places at once...

Not in the same post, obviously, but it makes more sense for one person trawling thread #17 for people and places than for one person trawling thread #17 for people, and another trawling it for places at a separate time...

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

I agree, a 'House Rules & Rulings' would make sense. Another I *think* exists is that some Secondary Abilities merely reduce the difficulty rolls in things to stop the 'Lawful Stupid' situation that buying a Secondary can make your roll-pools smaller. [A topic currently being discussed elsewhere...]

I have never heard of any house rule where secondary abilities merely reduce diff. They are narrow field skills that are cheaper to buy they finction as any other skills.

Great One's already done much of the heavy lifting on this one, actually; the 'end of thread roundups' which I admittedly thought was pointless at first sight but now see the worth of. Now, it's possible that somebody could collate all of them, add a touch of formatting to 'stitch together' the ~40 posts into a single body and so on, but I don't really see much benefit of doing that. At least not for the effort it would take.

I agree a touch up to the logs that can then be put together as a story so far should work.

We could do two posts in the 'Other Locations' list; #1 being the Chantries, #2 being the Others. Works better that way, actually. Or we could divide it by location, not type. I personally like the type division, but this ain't my call.

It do not matter if we have a other locations post sorted by type or by where they are located, either works.

Was thinking that would be the last phase [it is the most labourious...]. I actually think between the four of us, we will remember quite a lot or have it noted down somewhere. Plus, the 'law of diminishing returns' suggests in this case, the stuff we do already remember *are* the most important bits and thus, the ones most needing noting down.

Starting a thread where one can jot down NPC names one remember and also where I can post any new named NPCs is a good ideaas a first step to getting this sorted out.

I have also given a little thought on PC recruitment. I know Great One has expressed a desire for a 5th to join us, and feel that perhaps the start of the Horizon story arc is the best time. If nothing else, it allows easier insertion into the chronicle.

Therefore, we should set ourselves a soft goal to have at least the 'bare bones' of the tasks done by that point [the thread-scans will take an age, so can be slowly done over months] to ease the newbie into the chronicle easier.

I can not set a soft goal of when this will be done, to be honest due to my mental and hormone issues that leave me with a lack of spoon many days writing IC posts is about what I can do and it have been often I have had to reach deep into my reserves to do that but I do it to keep the game going. Tidying up the OOC section and getting useful resources sorted is a task I will have to do when I have extra energy and I can not tell you wen that is, right now that I am in a bad period setting such a goal would just be stressful for me. I work on things when I can.

Now as for more players, as Morrigan's player got health issues to deal with and we do not know when she will be getting back why I thought another player was a good idea was to have the game flowing smoothly, to at least see a small handful of posts each day in the IC section help prevent the game from drying up and dying off as so many PPBs do and that to me is more important that a perfectly ordered OOC section.

Honestly, for thread-trawling, there's little point in not noting down people and places at once...

Agreed.

Not in the same post, obviously, but it makes more sense for one person trawling thread #17 for people and places than for one person trawling thread #17 for people, and another trawling it for places at a separate time...

Agreed.

[Nicole Bouchard]

Honestly, for thread-trawling, there's little point in not noting down people and places at once...

Not in the same post, obviously, but it makes more sense for one person trawling thread #17 for people and places than for one person trawling thread #17 for people, and another trawling it for places at a separate time...

Which is why I say this is the last phase. So we know what we're looking for, so no wasted effort at all.

I have never heard of any house rule where secondary abilities merely reduce diff. They are narrow field skills that are cheaper to buy they finction as any other skills.

Erm... you agreed to it when I bought the Secondary 'Scrounge' some time back? I *explicitly* pointed out I didn't want a situation where Nick's results got worse rolls-wise because she was no longer using her Streetwise [which had more dots] for them? Or the fact it would have been cheaper XP-wise to simply beef up Streetwise?

I can not set a soft goal of when this will be done, to be honest due to my mental and hormone issues that leave me with a lack of spoon many days writing IC posts is about what I can do and it have been often I have had to reach deep into my reserves to do that but I do it to keep the game going. Tidying up the OOC section and getting useful resources sorted is a task I will have to do when I have extra energy and I can not tell you wen that is, right now that I am in a bad period setting such a goal would just be stressful for me. I work on things when I can.

Now as for more players, as Morrigan's player got health issues to deal with and we do not know when she will be getting back why I thought another player was a good idea was to have the game flowing smoothly, to at least see a small handful of posts each day in the IC section help prevent the game from drying up and dying off as so many PPBs do and that to me is more important that a perfectly ordered OOC section.

Once again, this is not either-or-situation. A 'soft goal' is merely 'let's see if we can achieve this, no biggie if we don't'. Plus, if all four of us are working on it, that's obviously quicker than one alone.

It's always an issue introducing a new player to a game in the middle of a mission. I was thinking that it might be better to do it a) where it's easier to ease them into the game if we're not fighting and b) we've gone the most pressing tidy-ups to it's easier for players to get up to speed [joining new games always daunting, at least for me]. Also, the above becomes even harder if you've also got the task of breaking in a new PC too. You've got three solid PCs at the second, so not much chance of the game dying right this moment.

Plus; summer is a crap time for recruitment anyway. Half the people are off on various things, and half of the others are more inclined for outdoors events.

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

Erm... you agreed to it when I bought the Secondary 'Scrounge' some time back? I *explicitly* pointed out I didn't want a situation where Nick's results got worse rolls-wise because she was no longer using her Streetwise [which had more dots] for them? Or the fact it would have been cheaper XP-wise to simply beef up Streetwise?

I believe that was spesifically for Scrouge how to make it work not for secodary skill in general for secondary skill in general you roll like any other skill.

Once again, this is not either-or-situation. A 'soft goal' is merely 'let's see if we can achieve this, no biggie if we don't'. Plus, if all four of us are working on it, that's obviously quicker than one alone.

I can not make any comittments at this time. I can work on it when I have the energy to do so but that is all I can promise.

It's always an issue introducing a new player to a game in the middle of a mission. I was thinking that it might be better to do it a) where it's easier to ease them into the game if we're not fighting and b) we've gone the most pressing tidy-ups to it's easier for players to get up to speed [joining new games always daunting, at least for me]. Also, the above becomes even harder if you've also got the task of breaking in a new PC too. You've got three solid PCs at the second, so not much chance of the game dying right this moment.

It would be more ideal to introduce new players on Horizon but it is not ideal if the game dry up until we get to that point, but yes you are right the players that are left are solid so it might work ok to wait.

[Nicole Bouchard]

I believe that was spesifically for Scrouge how to make it work not for secodary skill in general for secondary skill in general you roll like any other skill.

Well, from my seat it seems that there's two types of Secondary; ones which *could* possibly come under a Primary [such as Scrounge] and the ones which don't [such as, for example Ride]. Clearly, this informal rule wouldn't work on the Secondaries which aren't linked to any Primaries.

I can not make any comittments at this time. I can work on it when I have the energy to do so but that is all I can promise.

And nor can I. Which is why it's a soft goal. *smiles*

It would be more ideal to introduce new players on Horizon but it is not ideal if the game dry up until we get to that point, but yes you are right the players that are left are solid so it might work ok to wait.

Plus, you're about to run a combat scene... them things are stressful!

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

Well, from my seat it seems that there's two types of Secondary; ones which *could* possibly come under a Primary [such as Scrounge] and the ones which don't [such as, for example Ride]. Clearly, this informal rule wouldn't work on the Secondaries which aren't linked to any Primaries.

Generally speaking secondary abilities are there for two reasons, either to cover areas where the regular skills just do not have an overlap or to let you quickly get better at one spesific field as they are so much cheaper to buy, so for example let us say Susan is not that good at atheltics in general but she is good with horses so she might buy ride and have 1 in Atheltics but ride she have bought 4 dots in. Basiclaly it represent that it is quicker to get good at a narrow field quickly than at large ones. I did intend for the house rule to be spesifically for your scavanging, generally I tend to say that if you ahve two abilities that would be fitting for a roll then use the highest one.

For example I would say I myself have a few dots in occult, I also have some dots in Stone Lore, if I want o find out what a gem encrusted ritual dagger is used for, if I was a WoD character i would roll whichever of the two are higher, but Stone Lore would be cheaper to by so it would give me a leg up on thigns spesifically to do witht he occult properties of stones.

Plus, you're about to run a combat scene... them things are stressful!

That is fair enough.

[Nicole Bouchard]

Generally speaking secondary abilities are there for two reasons, either to cover areas where the regular skills just do not have an overlap or to let you quickly get better at one spesific field as they are so much cheaper to buy, so for example let us say Susan is not that good at atheltics in general but she is good with horses so she might buy ride and have 1 in Atheltics but ride she have bought 4 dots in. Basiclaly it represent that it is quicker to get good at a narrow field quickly than at large ones. I did intend for the house rule to be spesifically for your scavanging, generally I tend to say that if you ahve two abilities that would be fitting for a roll then use the highest one.

For example I would say I myself have a few dots in occult, I also have some dots in Stone Lore, if I want o find out what a gem encrusted ritual dagger is used for, if I was a WoD character i would roll whichever of the two are higher, but Stone Lore would be cheaper to by so it would give me a leg up on thigns spesifically to do witht he occult properties of stones.

With the 'free-standing' Secondaries, I agree with you 100%.

However, there is a massive hole in your argument regarding the other type If you were a PC and investigating a ritual dagger, you should be utilising all your knowledge on the subject [in this case Occult + Stone Law] to come to the conclusion, but you're instead arguing that you would have to choose which one you'd consult and forget the other one. Putting aside the fact that no person's brain can even function like that in RL, it is stupid on sheet grounds.

Basically put, getting a Secondary costs only 1XP less than a Primary in total to get to five dots. Therefore, Susan threw 14XP into buying a very specialised Secondary [Ride] when she could have simply spent 12XP to get her Primary [Athletics] up to 4 which would offer the same die pools in riding and would be useable in things which are not horse riding.

Which is why I thought the agreement with Scrounge/Streetwise was the perfect solution to above - it rewards specialisation, not punishes it. Another example can be Lore/Occult rolls.

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

However, there is a massive hole in your argument regarding the other type If you were a PC and investigating a ritual dagger, you should be utilising all your knowledge on the subject [in this case Occult + Stone Law] to come to the conclusion, but you're instead arguing that you would have to choose which one you'd consult and forget the other one. Putting aside the fact that no person's brain can even function like that in RL, it is stupid on sheet grounds.

You do not combine regular skills and abilties or reduce diff when they overlap so why should cheaper secondary abilities get something more expensive skill do not? Here is the thing no RPG system perfectly illustrate life most of them are there to avoid a bang bang you are dead, no I am not scenario. Here I rule it would be unfair to give cheaper secondary abilities functions that would make them far better than more expensive primary abilities so no just like if something can both go under Computer and Academics you choose the skill you want to use you do nto combine them, the same is true for secondary skills, they are regular skills they just have a narrower scope, that is why they are cheaper. If secondary abilities generally was a reduce diff on rolls by that much they would be much more valuable and should be much more expensive to buy. You complained about scavange so I made and exception on that one skill it will nto be a general thing.

asically put, getting a Secondary costs only 1XP less than a Primary in total to get to five dots. Therefore, Susan threw 14XP into buying a very specialised Secondary [Ride] when she could have simply spent 12XP to get her Primary [Athletics] up to 4 which would offer the same die pools in riding and would be useable in things which are not horse riding.

She choose a cheaper skill to be specialized that is her choice.

[Nicole Bouchard]

So... what *is* the benefit, if any of taking such a Secondary rather than simply beefing up the associated Primary? Apart from the mighty one experience point discount [for L1].

Plus, why did you grant an exception for Scrounge, and *only* Scrounge?

[Warpmind]

Y'know, as a skill, Scrounge seems ill-suited as a mere "Streetwise" subskill, from where I'm sitting. It'd be better described as a weird mix of elements from Science, Technology, Crafts, Computers, Stealth, etc. - with viable Specialties being something like, say, Med Tech, Guns, Motors, etc. Scrounging is all about the cheap acquisition of usable components, through more or less licit means. It's quite reasonable for a scrapper to be vastly better at spotting and extricating functional car parts from a wreck than at cleaning and installing them, for example...

Secondly, now I am starting to wonder if I have remembered to include the "secondaries" discount for Colin's secondaries... how much was that discount, again? Ah, no matter, most of those were freebies, anyway, if i recall correctly, earned through dedicated study...

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

The reason why you get a secondary skill is that A you might find that a more narrow skill fit your character concept better a character might be clumsy and not good at sport but be good at swimming for example so Swimming would be a better skill than Atheletics. B: It is cheaper to get the more narrow skills so someone might want to buy only the ability they need and not the wider skill.

I made an exception because it had been several mails and I wanted a solution just to get the matter out of the world so i said fine sure let us make this exception and the problem will be solved.

I believe most of Colin's secondaries are freebies but you can always count over your non freebie ones and see.

[Nicole Bouchard]

The fact that Scrounge seems 'ill-suited to Streetwise' was the very fact I took it. For that is the definition of a Secondary [in my mind] - one which poorly fits the standard categories.

True the above two posts may be, a 'scrounge' roll without Scrouge would normally be Streetwise, right? Yet the message I'm getting is that I'd have to chose either/or to roll. If it's the same roll difficulty-wise, why on earth would I buy a Secondary then? It offers no benefit. That makes it a waste of XP.

The reported XP benefits for Secondaries is meagre - Level 1 is -1 XP, and that's it.

I'll be blunt. In this case, Secondaries which fall into the above trap are a waste of XP. Any player would be advised to simply ignore them. In my case, I have paid 4 XP for *no effect at all* [for Nick already had 2 Streetwise]. In fact, it would have been better for me to have bought Streetwise 3 with that XP instead.

I thought you'd accepted my idea because you saw the issue, not simply a one-off handwave simply to quieten me.


I've searched though the 4th Cores for MtA, then VtM and WtA to see what they have to say on the topic, and not for the first time there is none. Nearest I got was this bit under MtA Core 'Bows' [pg 419]...

These weapons, though, demand more expertise than guns. To
use a bow correctly, a character needs the secondary Skill Archery.
The player rolls Dexterity + Archery in order to shoot that weapon.
Different bows have different difficulty ratings, as listed on the
Ranged Weapons chart. A character without the appropriate
Ability can try to use a bow, but he suffers a +2 difficulty penalty.

[bolding mine]

This makes sense. One who does not know how to do it will suffer penalties. More importantly, there *are* sheet advantages to having the Secondary over not having it.

That's all I'm asking, here. That a character who's taken the 'time/effort' [represented roughly by XP] to get the appropiate Secondary does actually get an advantage from having the thing.

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

I have said my opinion on this you are free to have your own opinion and not take secondary abilities.

[Nicole Bouchard]

- So, is this basically a 'global house rule' for Secondaries?

- Does this ruling apply to Lores too? It's either/or with identical rolls with Occult?

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

There are no house rule for secondary skills. Other than with the scorunching and only that one all other secondary skills function as regular skills per the book.

Lore and Occult to work by the book we have never house ruled any of those.

[Nicole Bouchard]

... I am confused.

You have said that a player with Scrounge and Streetwise will have to choose between which Ability they roll, that they do not stack and appears don't grant any other bonuses save a flavour one and one XP discount at the start.

I want need to know whether this applies for *other* secondaries.

'Loes and Occult to work by the book'. I can't find anything about the Lores/Occult division, but I only have M20. Please could you clarify this for me?

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

How is this confusing? You bagger so I made a special decicion for scorunching, this do NOT apply to ANY other secondary which is what this entire debate have been about. We use secondary skills by the book.

Occult are used for general occult things Lore is used for what these Lores apply to things Occult generally will not help you with like Vampire Lore this is very clear really.

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