Re: Forum Update Working Thread

[Nicole Bouchard]

Let us forget about Scrounge for a moment, Great One. This is not about Scrounge any more. In fact, let us pretend Scrounge does not even exist.

I am trying to work out what system you use with Secondaries in general.

Please stop saying 'by the book' because I've gone though my copy of 'the book' and cannot find anything about this. If I could find it in the book I would not be asking you.

I ask again. Let's go back to your example of Susan. She had Ride and Athletics. And wants to ride. Am I right to assume;

#1: She has to choose between using Ride or Athletics in a roll?
#2: There's no way she can use Ride to benefit her Athletics roll [or vice-versa]?

The reason I ask this is simple. I am trying to establish a general principle for all Secondaries. Then we all [and future PCs] know the rule.

In my close reading of the M20 book again, I found the 'Complementary Rolls' optional rule. [p 389].
Is this the book rule you're talking about?

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

et us forget about Scrounge for a moment, Great One. This is not about Scrounge any more. In fact, let us pretend Scrounge does not even exist.

I am trying to work out what system you use with Secondaries in general.

Please stop saying 'by the book' because I've gone though my copy of 'the book' and cannot find anything about this. If I could find it in the book I would not be asking you.

I use the regular World of Darkness Storyteller system of one attribute plus one ability, that is how it have always been. Secondary abilities are just abilities not on the main portion of the character sheet who are cheaper to buy they function exactly as all other abilities.

I ask again. Let's go back to your example of Susan. She had Ride and Athletics. And wants to ride. Am I right to assume;

#1: She has to choose between using Ride or Athletics in a roll?
#2: There's no way she can use Ride to benefit her Athletics roll [or vice-versa]?

Yes she choose between Ride and Atheletics. Just as you do not combine Technology and Computer if someone touch both you choose the one that fit best.

The reason I ask this is simple. I am trying to establish a general principle for all Secondaries. Then we all [and future PCs] know the rule.

In my close reading of the M20 book again, I found the 'Complementary Rolls' optional rule. [p 389].
Is this the book rule you're talking about?

I was referring to the basic rule of how the Storyteller system work for most things, one attribute plus one ability.

[Warpmind]

Question - there are times when a success threshold might be in place, right? I would assume a secondary ability might negate those, unlike a more general skill. for example, for identifying the mystic associations with a set of crystals, Int+Occult might have a threshold of 2 for fairly obscure things, but Int+Gemstone Lore might ignore the threshold on account of the extremely specific focus of that skill... or would I be off the mark on this?

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

I think that sound resonable yes.

[Warpmind]

Oh, and seems we ought to clarify something - Secondary Abilities are on page 289 of M20.

Some secondary abilities, it seems, list the option of lowering difficulty for other abilities on a successfull roll, such as a successful Manipulation+Animal Kinship roll to make riding a horse easier.

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

Very well if it is in the book we can use that.

[Nicole Bouchard]

So... working off that, a 'general Secondary rule' could be; rolling the Secondary+Attribute first can lower the difficulty of the Primary+Attribute roll afterwards? [Unless it has no Primary equivalent, like Colin's Flight which means it works like normal].

That makes logical sense, would not be overly complicated to do and would also work with Lores/Occult.

Though while that works, I'll say it does make Secondaries clearly less useful than Primaries. Is it possible for future, all Secondary Abilities [including Lores] cost less XP? Say, current level x1 than x2 [most Secondaries are rationed by RP reasons anyway].

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

That works for me.

Secobdaries do cost less xp already.

[Nicole Bouchard]

Only for the first dot. Second to fifth cost the same for both. Which seems a bit odd for an element which of limited value [after all, that's why Spheres are so expensive!]

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

Are you sure as far as I know secondary abilities cost less to raise as well.

[Nicole Bouchard]

[Sorry about delay; utterly forgot about this]

If we go by What this says the costs are the following:

Primary Abilities: 3, 2, 4, 8, 12.
Secondary Abilities: 2, 2, 4, 8, 12.

Because the Primary cost is Current x2, which is the same as Secondary. For the niche/limited ability of the Secondary, it would seem that dropping the Secondary to Current x1 would be better, so the cost would be;

Secondary Abilities: 2, 1, 2, 3, 4.

Think this would be a fair comprimise - and one which would be capable of standing up as a general 'House Rule'.


In the weapons category.... geez, I forgot how damn *complicated* the firearms bit is. I have a hack which will make it a bit easier to work [esp as you don't know much about guns...] if you'd like to see. [Plus, it's all wrong.]

Oh, and taser has the following: Damage 5 [Bashing], Range of 5, Rate of 1 and Clip of 1.

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

Dropping secondary skills to 1 times current rating sounds fair.

I would love to see your back about guns.

Thank you for the taser info.

[Warpmind]

Yeah, that cost tweak sounds fair for the narrower secondaries.

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

Yeah so I am thinking we will go with that.

[Nicole Bouchard]

- Secondaries. Well, Great One it looks like it's time for you to do your stuff; aka go to the above XP costs post and edit it so it's accurate. Plus, while you're there perhaps you could file off '...from Nicole's player' from the title and then sticky it so it doesn't get lost [it's start to creep down the listing, and may within the next year end up on the next page].

- Firearms. Now, while purists will shoot me for saying this, the only real important thing about firearms is the size of bullet. All the capabilities of a [traditional] gun is contained *within* the bullet – the best designed/maintained weapon can only minimise energy loss from it. This means that once you know the calibre of round, you roughly know the capabilities of the weapon.

Normally, magazine capacity would be important, but not in this game for we don't count off magazine rounds. Strict range limits don't matter either, as I suspect you don't actually draw out battle maps and measure out lines of fire etc. The 'conceal rating' is generally irrelevant, for we're all reasonable players and don't have them pulling AK47s out of their undergarments. Only issue is weapons which can do burst/automatic fire, which is covered by the 3/10 extra die [and with the associated penalties].

The conclusion here is obvious; the current gun table for us is either inaccurate [boring details on request], confusing or irrelevant. Therefore, I propose this new one;

	Damage	Range
Handgun, Light	3	10
.22 Short, 9mm Short
Handgun, Medium	4	20
.38 S&W, 9mm Para, 9mm Makarov
Handgun, Heavy	5	30
.375 Magnum, .44 Magnum, .45 ACP
Rifle, Light	6	100
.223 Remington, 5.56 NATO, 5.45 Soviet
Rifle, Medium	7	150
.243 Winchester, 7.62 Soviet, 7.62 NATO
Rifle, Heavy	8	200
.30-06 Springfield, 7.62 Russian, 7.92 Mauser
Shotgun	8	25
12 Gauge
Machine Gun	12	500
.50 Browning, 12.7 Soviet

It's simple to use – you work out what 'calibre group' a weapon is, then simply have it act as that type of weapon would. Example, an Uzi is a 9mm Para so would come under 'Handgun, Medium' and well, everyone knows it can do full auto fire.

The way it would work for PCs is simple; we'd note the category of said weapon in wherever we record such things. Plus, the only person this would really affect is Nick, and I don't mind mentioning the rating when she pulls out the weapon to use...

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

- Secondaries. Well, Great One it looks like it's time for you to do your stuff; aka go to the above XP costs post and edit it so it's accurate. Plus, while you're there perhaps you could file off '...from Nicole's player' from the title and then sticky it so it doesn't get lost [it's start to creep down the listing, and may within the next year end up on the next page].

The post at the top of this thread?

Firearms. Now, while purists will shoot me for saying this, the only real important thing about firearms is the size of bullet. All the capabilities of a [traditional] gun is contained *within* the bullet – the best designed/maintained weapon can only minimise energy loss from it. This means that once you know the calibre of round, you roughly know the capabilities of the weapon.

Normally, magazine capacity would be important, but not in this game for we don't count off magazine rounds. Strict range limits don't matter either, as I suspect you don't actually draw out battle maps and measure out lines of fire etc. The 'conceal rating' is generally irrelevant, for we're all reasonable players and don't have them pulling AK47s out of their undergarments. Only issue is weapons which can do burst/automatic fire, which is covered by the 3/10 extra die [and with the associated penalties].

The conclusion here is obvious; the current gun table for us is either inaccurate [boring details on request], confusing or irrelevant. Therefore, I propose this new one;


Damage Range
Handgun, Light 3 10
.22 Short, 9mm Short
Handgun, Medium 4 20
.38 S&W, 9mm Para, 9mm Makarov
Handgun, Heavy 5 30
.375 Magnum, .44 Magnum, .45 ACP
Rifle, Light 6 100
.223 Remington, 5.56 NATO, 5.45 Soviet
Rifle, Medium 7 150
.243 Winchester, 7.62 Soviet, 7.62 NATO
Rifle, Heavy 8 200
.30-06 Springfield, 7.62 Russian, 7.92 Mauser
Shotgun 8 25
12 Gauge
Machine Gun 12 500
.50 Browning, 12.7 Soviet

It's simple to use – you work out what 'calibre group' a weapon is, then simply have it act as that type of weapon would. Example, an Uzi is a 9mm Para so would come under 'Handgun, Medium' and well, everyone knows it can do full auto fire.

The way it would work for PCs is simple; we'd note the category of said weapon in wherever we record such things. Plus, the only person this would really affect is Nick, and I don't mind mentioning the rating when she pulls out the weapon to use...

Thank you for the information that will be very useful. Please take one free exp for posting this.

[Warpmind]

Okay, gotta arrest you there, Nick - the size of the bullet is but one factor, albeit an important one, but barrel length affects range and precision, and cartridge size and powder load is at *least* as important as the slug itself (barring exotic materials). So in this case, you're oversimplifying a little too much.

As for counting off ammo, I certainly try to keep track of how much Colin's got in the gun, and while some Magi might be less concerned with manually reloading, it's still something relevant to keep track of.

Concealment factor and range, though, yeah, those aren't much of a concern for us.

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

Concealment might be important if you want to carry the weapon around. As for counting ammo I leave that up to the players to keep track of for their own character.

[Nicole Bouchard]

All good points, Warp. In reply;

- Powder load, penetrative metal core etc invariably linked to the size of bullet. Or to be more correct, the total mass of the bullet. However, if a particular calibre is 'underpowered' for it's relative size, it can simply be shunted into a lower category. [Yet almost all of these are pretty rare and thus, not going to really crop up in-play.]

- As you said, we can assume the table represents conventional/most common ammo. I think there's an exotic ammo list somewhere, perhaps I should dig that out?

- We can safely assume that any standard weapon is produced with sufficient barrel length etc to make good use of the capabilities of the round. The only real issue here is with home-modded weapons, such as sawn-off shotguns. In that case, what can be done is to simply half the range of the listed calibre range.

- Counting off remaining ammo can be left to the player. For each weapon has it's own load; for example Colin's Browning is 13 rounds, while Nick's CZ 75 is 15. I personally keep it a bit fuzzy, as so not tie Great One's hands when in combat scenes – esp for when Nick's using weapons with larger capacities / automatic fire.

In this case, I *think* we can say 'players can be trusted on this'.

- While we're on this, is there any type of conventional firearm which is *not* yet covered on the chart? Or anything I can add to make it easier for Great One to use?

- The concealment issue will only rarely come up; and if Great One doubts whether a particular weapon can be hidden, there's nothing stopping them doing a Google Image search of that particular weapon and judging there/then if what is being attempted could be pulled off.

With secondaries. No, I meant this post needs editing. To change the Secondary Ability cost to x1 [instead of  x2]. I also suggest you a) change the title to simply be 'EXP Costs' and to sticky the post so it remains on-top.

[Warpmind]

You neglect the distinct power level difference between rifle and handgun rounds, but yes, underpowered rounds aren't going to come up much. Hot-loaded or magnum rounds, on the other hand, would be an issue, as those have quite a larger charge than the "normal" load for the caliber; .44 and .44 magnum have a very different kick to them, despite same projectile diameter. Not entirely sure offhand whether .50 AE (Desert Eagle) and .500 Magnum (S&W) have significantly different slug weights, but the latter's casing is at least obviously longer, as I recall.

Also, Colin's Browning has 10-round magazines, not 13. *Technically*, he's had the gun long enough for it to be "grandfathered" in with larger-capacity magazines, but since it's a legally registered weapon, sticking to the Massachusetts legal limit is just less of a hassle, especially at the gun range when he trains away a few score rounds. Not expecting Nick to bother with such petty concerns as legal magazine capacity for unregistered weapons, of course.

Only thing I'd want to add is something like the range and effect of the M79 we discussed briefly in character earlier.

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

With secondaries. No, I meant this post needs editing. To change the Secondary Ability cost to x1 [instead of x2]. I also suggest you a) change the title to simply be 'EXP Costs' and to sticky the post so it remains on-top.

Did we have a post with exp costs? What if I just make a new one with the updated costs? Sorry but I might have forgotten the post you are referring to, I know a post was made with exp costs a long time ago, is that the one you are thinking about?

[Nicole Bouchard]

Yes, we did. This one: https://chantrysteelhaven.forumotion.com/t133-exp-costs-from-nicole-s-player.

I've linked to it before, can't you make the link colour different to normal text colour?

Anyway, was thinking that not only does the Secondaries costs need changing [to reflect your ruling], but also suggested you remove the 'from Nicole's player' from the title and then to sticky the post so it doesn't continue to be pushed down the page.

In reply, Warp.

- I'm not neglecting the distinct power level difference rifle/pistol rounds – at least no more than the general mechanics do. Pistol round cause less damage and have much less range than rifle ones. I can tweak the existing firearms system, but I'm basically limited to the framework as laid out in the WoD books.

- With overpressure rounds and so on, they can come under the 'special ammo' category which I mentioned / suggested earlier. And recoil is partly dependent on the design of the weapon; which is why two 9mm Para weapons will have differing levels of kick to them. But the Firearm rules don't take into account recoil so until they do it's a moot point. [However, they can be put in as a modifier, if Great One desires]

- The power / penetration of different rounds does differ, yes; but I do have to somewhat dumb-down them to fit into the limited means which is the weapons table [which is WoD's limitation, not mine] which requires the fitting into general 'bands'. What's more, when I was earlier looking into 'total knock-down power' of each rounds [a much better judge for using against vampires, HITs, werewolves etc] showed that in your mentioned case, the .50AE and .44 Magnum is pretty similar.

.500 Magnum is in fact a different, larger handgun round, with serious TKO power. However, it's pretty rare (and expensive) so unlikely to be encountered. I can put it into the chart, but it would require a new category... plus, another gap is for 'elephant gun' rounds like the .500 Nitro. Again, will need another category – question is, does Great One want me to put it in?

- The fact Colin is using 'Mass legal' small magazines is no business of the chart's any more than if Nick was using part-loaded clips for her SKS. Or the fact she's actually using a weapon with a stripper clip, not a detachable magazine. Though for the record, American gun licences are tied to the person, not the weapon.

- There are about bits/pieces spread about various books for things like grenade launchers and suchlike [a vague memory that the old Sabbat book had a load of odd weapons in it]. I don't mind digging them out and rigging up a easy system to go with the firearms one, as long as a) Great One wants me to and b) we deal with the 'normal' firearms bit first.

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

I see well I do not go around and remember every OOC post.

I am not sure how to make a link color different from text color. The question is this really a post that need editing as it is spesifically for your character and you know what exp rules we agreed on, if you fear you will forget just make a post to the thread with the new information.

I can surely make an exp post thread yes.

[Nicole Bouchard]

I see well I do not go around and remember every OOC post.

And I don't expect you to either! That's part of the reason we're all pitching in; four minds remember more than one.

The question is this really a post that need editing as it is spesifically for your character and you know what exp rules we agreed on, if you fear you will forget just make a post to the thread with the new information.

I can surely make an exp post thread yes.

Think we're at cross-purposes again.
#1: The linked post was not just for me, but for everyone.
#2: The reason we're doing half of this update/clean is for new players who won't know.
#3: You basically did the thing I was asking for.
#4: Thanks.

However, now you've done a new one can you delete the old one that I linked above? It's now out of date and thus, useless. Literally all you need to do is find the little 'X' button on the top-right of that old post [just to the right of the 'edit' button], click it and then confirm deletion.


In other parts, I've taken a look at both of these;

https://chantrysteelhaven.forumotion.com/t261-characters-notebook-thread

https://chantrysteelhaven.forumotion.com/t9-who-is-who-among-npcs

It would seem the best method of doing this would be to organise them by location, and to use a big Word document as the 'master' and merge more and more from 'the notebook' as/when they come up [occasionally posting parts of it to show the progress]. I don't mind doing this [though will take some time]; question is, does anyone else desire to do the collation on Word part? Or have an better idea on how to do it?

[Anja Rebekka Schultze]

That is true. I have made a new thread for exp costs and made it sticky. I see no reason why an old post can not float around but if I remember when not on my phone will do so.

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