Posts for Tane 2

[Adley, Colin, Tane and Serge] (Cabal meeting 10 in the morning Wednesday 30/9 2015)

"My guess is as a backup body."

"As disturbing as that is, I suspect that you are right Adley."
Bruce said and frowned.

[Investigating Avatar Restoration, Cita's Apartment]

"Hrm, last time I tried to see how far it got it went down the entire hallway. That was before I...progressed somewhat, I believe..."

"I doubt you can be heard five miles Mr Roth Hicks but just in case perhaps it is best if you use your tablet for more...sensitive topics."
Cita said as she regarded Adley.

"I see. Why? If they know that spirits do exist, then why is it forbidden? It would seem they are ignoring a rather large chunk of reality, until they can get it to go away...yet it's persisted before they existed."

"For exactly that reason, to ignore something, force it out o reality until it go away and for control over it's own operatives."
The spirit healer explained.
"They can relate to spirits in the Umbra as transdimentional entities and that is all that is allowed."

"That's true...which means if we're to bring one we better damn know what we're dealing with..

"I am not sure we can know what we are dealing with when it comes to the Psycopomps Mr Roth Hicks."
Cita said and sigh.

how do we know it's imperfect now? This relationship we can now build upon seems to me much more developed than something that is just a part of us...but I do suppose it is less whole, even if it may be more...hrm, it's like now we can communicate with them and they us, at least some may. And in order to do that, they had to be separate somewhat from us, and not just a part of us. If we talked to our toe, then our toe would not give us much answer."

"They talk to us now Mr Roth Hicks, because they have to. A Fount do not have to speak, not unless the host completely fall of his or her path though insanity or some other cruel fate, for what the Avatar wish to learn it have been taken to a host with the same goals as it, who will naturally face the challenges needed, and so it can just be a part of the host with no need to talk, a perfect bond."
The Virtual Adept explained.

He raised an eyebrow at her. "Er...who said that?"

"Master Porthos have mentioned it, that Master Teomim worked with the psycopomps or at least studied them."
She replied.
"It is said no one where a greater expert on Avatars than Master Teomim, and some said he worked on a ritual to join with a psycopomp, to become one with one of them,whatever it is true or not though, well that is another matter."

((OOC: Pleh, wanted to post earlier, but have a nasty head cold. Feeling a bit better now, so reading comprehension is at least approaching acceptable levels...))

[Cabal Meeting, 10 AM, Wednesday September 30th]

Anja wrote:"The question is are there anything that can be argued to make the Council spare Miss Clearwater?"
Bruce said and frowned.
"She is a full Nephanus after all."

Colin frowned, "There is one legal precedent of which I am aware, and that is a certain Spirit Master in Chicago, one Master Ir, who surrendered to the Traditions, and whose Avatar... butchered half a dozen Spirit Masters in self defense. That precedent will be what Anna relies on for her trial, as she cannot be safely... well... if it can be adequately proven that an Avatar is strong and willful enough to lash back at anyone tampering with it, that might be enough. Short of that, we'll need to prove her Avatar is not Fallen. It's certainly a tall order either way..."

S7trif3 wrote:"The reasons the Traditions came together is sound, there is already the Council of Nine. I do not disagree there could be some work done to improve the current system, but stripping it wholesale will simply give the Nephandi and the Technocracy all the leeway they need to eradicate us."

Anja wrote:"Exactly what the Traditions give us is safety in numbers and without a strng central leadership that is not going to count for much, hell even in smaller units like a Cabal I prefer to have one leader, not to act as a tyrant but to help sort out disputes and make the har choices when they have to be ade but for smaller groups softer forms of leadership can work but for a society, no I do not think that would work."
Bruce said and he shook his head.

He nodded, "At this point, we cannot afford to break down the old to build anew; strategies that work for small groups are often only effective for small groups, and break down utterly when small groups come together to form something greater. It's the very reason a pyramid-shaped hierarchy is the only way to structure a country, a corporation, or other large bureaucratic organization if there's any intent to have a lasting structure."

Anja wrote:"Yeah I would not what that serum used on me, shit but the stuff look like green snot."
Bruce said with disgust in his eyes.

He grimaced, "More like molten wine gum. And a little less pleasant."

Jeremy wrote:"But man, wouldn't that be a power move. Challenging and beating a Verbana in a knife fight. She'd have to concede defeat and give up what she's doing." Serge said with a sigh. "But I get what your saying. Unless Mr. Wainwright had some low key hidden knife skills challenging her to a knife fight probably isn't the smarted idea."

Anja wrote:"It would be a power move however if it do not work out and Colin is not good enough with a nife then he will have his ass handed to him by a teenage girl which is less of a power move, for a debate though that is where Colin shines and no one can claim it is nto fair as Miss Rozzo is also given a chance to put forth her views."
Bruce said with a slight grin.
"What to make bets on who will win kid?"

Jeremy wrote:"Sure thing. My money is on Mr. Wainwright. All the way. How about you?" Serge said confidently.

Anja wrote:"Yes unfortunately I will have to bet on Colin as well so we might have a problem finding someone to bet against us."
Bruce said sounding amusing.
"But when he wins we can always buy one another a beer."

He grinned wryly, "Challenging to a knife duel would be an intimidation move more than a power move; I am not particularly well trained with knives, and I don't know how well Miss Rozzo is trained with them, so it would be a gamble where I had no feel for the odds. I may be stronger and more agile than her, but that only counts for so much against skill... And if you buy one another a beer after the duel, please, at least make it something that's not sex in a canoe."

Jeremy wrote:"Sure thing." Serge said with a smile. "But you know what...your right. That is a boring answer. I'm not gonna change my bet but how about this? As a side...let's say prediction...I'll also say that neither will win the debate. Neither side will give in and it'll end in a stalemate."

He grinned, "I'd take that wager, Bruce - the debate will be arbitrated, after all, and whether or not one party decides to give in will be irrelevant to whether the Deacons consider either point adequately argued and argument upheld..."

Jeremy wrote:"A one on one debate is where Mr. Wainwright shines right? That sounds like the perfect duel for this kind of thing. Even if he doesn't convince the Deacon council outright he can still convince a load of other people to the other side." Serge agreed, although he secretly wanted to see that knife fight.

S7trif3 wrote:"Exactly," he nodded to Serge.

Anja wrote:"A debate might be easier to sell before the Deacon Council than something from a fantasy movie and it would probably be considered more fair."
The Artificer commented.

Anja wrote:"Sometimes hard, ingrained beliefs can be hard to change but indeed a debate might change the mind of others who hear it, including those at Riverside if we invite them...so that might add to the herd immunity even if it might be hard to get Miss Rozzo herself to accept vaccines."
Bruce agreed.

Jeremy wrote:"Thankfully it doesn't matter if Miss Rozzo accepts it or not. She can believe whatever she wants too. What matters is getting others to see past hear fear-mongering and to show an alternative side to the arguments she presented to them."

Anja wrote:"Agreed, but for as long as Bee is weakened I would prefer if everyone around her where fully vaccinated but I guess Master Nassa can heal any illness she might contract, It would be best if we could talk Miss Rozzo into getting vaccinated as well but that she stop scaring the other Chantry members will do it."
The Orphan agreed.

S7trif3 wrote:"Agreed."

Jeremy wrote:"Talk to her...force her into a debate duel. Either way works." Serge said with a nod of agreement.

He chuckled, "I suppose a battle of wits with two poisoned goblets would be a bit of a tall order in any case... but when it comes to battling anti-vaccine bullshit, I do believe I have quite the arsenal in stock. Unlike Miss Rozzo, I can provide hard evidence through simple scryings across space and time to show what things looked like without vaccines, in case the Deacons need a reminder... One shouldn't trust everything one reads on the internet, but on a headstone, well..."

Anja wrote:"Cava is a clone of Wallace Jace, part of me is horrified and part o me is impressed by theman's former abilities, I hear his meeting with Horizon was rather...final."
Bruce said and he raised an eyebrow.
"Well perhaps if the girl can be convinced as well I doubt Master Haagen will want to hold his apprentice down for it though I guess at times you have to do just that."

Jeremy wrote:"Cava...was related to....no was....Wal-what!" Serge said in a voice of disbelief and the tiniest hint of anger. Flashes of the fae Deaconess and a thorn-hearted girl in a flower field flowed through his head, but he quickly brushed them aside. Even if that was what the Deaconess was referring to, now wasn't the time to decipher old riddles.

"She seemed like a normal girl. I would've never guessed."

Anja wrote:"Cava is a normal girl, it is not her fault she was created as a clone, and I guess that if everything that made Wallace Jace go down the wrong path happens to her that might bring her down a dangerous road as well but if she is raised well she will be a sweet kid but with his talent."
Bruce said.
"How she came into being should not be held against her."

Jeremy wrote:"Right, I know that. Still shocking to hear." Serge said still in a little surprised. "I doubt she'll go down the same path as Jace. She's too nice."

Anja wrote:"Perhaps Wallace Jace was nice when he was a kid as well."
Bruce said darkly.
"I have faith Master Haagen will not let Cava go down that path though."

Jeremy wrote:"He won't. He's a pretty cool dude." Serge agreed.

S7trif3 wrote:"Yes, it was a surprise. That man has...done strange, terrible and vile things but the girl seems untouched by it all and I do hope it stays that way."

Jeremy wrote:"Yeah. She seemed completely normal when we were playing together in Rosa's room." Serge said trying to recall how exactly he had felt when he had met Cava.

He nodded, "Cava is a normal girl, independent of Wallace Jace. She was conceived by his hand, certainly, but the girl's mother managed to escape and hide with a Chantry to protect the unborn child, and Jace never found them again, and apparently never even found out that the girl had been born and lived."

Jeremy wrote:"I don't think convincing Master Haagan will be too hard, especially if Mr. Wainwright does it. He wants what's best for his apprentices and if we can get him to see past the fear-mongering I'm sure he'll turn around."

Anja wrote:"Well what seamed to worry him the post was the number of vaccines, Miss Rozzo spoke of the percentage of kids traumatized by multiple injections but perhaps we can alliviate his fear that this will scare his apprentice, is there any chance you can offer to make the kid sleep for ten minutes so she can just have a nice drem and experience noting of it that might make Master Haagen more willing to listen."
Bruce said.
"I know that if I had an apprentice, especially a child I would be concerned over several inections at once I remember how much they sucked when I was a kid, one shot is over in a secon but five...I remember those doctor's visits, if that can be made easier on the kid it would be a good idea, for Jane to I guess if that is what it takes to convince her Mentor."

Jeremy wrote:"Than's an idea! And it'd be really easy to do. I can also simply distract her and diminish all of her fears while she's getting them if we want to keep her conscience. Tell her stories of Princess Katie while she's getting the shot." Serge said agreeing with the idea.

Anja wrote:"That is also a possibility yes depending on Master Haagen's wishes and the girl's. Richard can probably make sure she will feel no pain as well, so it will not be a scary experience for her, then I hope the alchemist will be less reluctant."
The Artificer agreed.

Anja wrote:"It makes me wonder why Jace created Cava, what did he want wit a little girl clone of himself?"
Bruce asked with a grunt.

S7trif3 wrote:"My guess is as a backup body."

Anja wrote:"As disturbing as that is, I suspect that you are right Adley."
Bruce said and frowned.

Jeremy wrote:Serge nodded in agreement. "Yeah, that's the most common use of mad scientist clones. Either that or creating an army of himself."

He grinned, "I like your idea, Mr. Yager - a picture book with Princess Katie getting her much-needed vaccines before traveling to strange new places could even be a bestseller to concerned parents. As for Jace's reasons - he was a Progenitor; I'd wager he wanted Cava as a perfect organ donor for himself as he aged; perhaps not a replacement body, but a fresh supply of spare parts..."

Anja wrote:"I have no idea why the Deaconess O'Conner have agreedto the vaccinations she might have seen something or she might have agreed to it because her unicorn said so, but it do appear like she did."
The Artificer said and shrugged.

He smiled wryly, "Question not the Deaconess' decisions, but appreciate them as they are..."

Jeremy wrote:"Comparable to mundane aircraft? Boo...their suppose to be giant cool magickal magick ships." Serge said with a chuckle, as he ripped off a page in his notepad and placed it next to the diagram on the table. The ship, he drew was remarkably similar to the one on the table, except Serge had felt the need to decorate it considerably. The new drawing had expressive decals on the outside of the ship and had extra wings and thrusters in aesthetically pleasing but aerodynamically inefficient places.

"You said this was a copy right? Do you mind if I keep this?" he asked pointing to the diagram on the table.

Anja wrote:"Many of them are like spaceships that travel the spirit world, others look like old frigates or other designs, while some of them are simple and utilitarian."
Bruce said and smiled.
"Some of them are big but as Primium are hard to make most of them are somewhat small."

Jeremy wrote:"These things are made of Primium?" Serge said in an interested voice. "Doesn't that stuff disable magick? Or was it only magick that hits it....actually that would make for a pretty good armor."

Anja wrote:"No it don't just reflect magick it dampen it, so it probably are harder to cast spells inside of a Primium ship but it is also allot harder for the critters found in the Umbra to simply eat the ship, that is why yes most Umbal ships are made with a Primium hull, not all of them but most, it can witstand what can be found in the void between worlds."
Bruce explained.

S7trif3 wrote:'I saw a ship that was a tree, before," he said, thoughtfully. "However, since ephemeral beings eat...well, ephemera or energy like Quintessence, stronger ones could be attracted to something like a large ship if it weren't protected." He supposed driving the car on the road in the umbra may have been a lot more dangerous if it hadn't been just about abandoned of spirits at the time. 'And it does make good armor, but it makes it harder for the person to cast their own magick."

Jeremy wrote:"A tree! Oh please tell it was a Verbana ship. That would make so much thematic sense." Serge said hoping it was true but bracing himself in case it wasn't.

He grinned, "Comparable to mundane aircraft in distribution, not design or capabilities. And certainly, feel free to rip out the page; there's a small perforated line near the spine. As for Primium, it does hamper magic when in direct contact with a Mage - but it can be overcome with training, and most Umbral ships don't have direct contact between the outer skin of the craft and the people within. In fact... hum... hold on..."
He went over to a drawer and dug around a bit, before pulling out a single bullet, without casing and neatly polished, "Bruce, I believe you wanted one of these, but I forgot to give it to you earlier. Mr. Yager, this is a Primium bullet, dug out of a dead Nephandus and thoroughly cleaned afterwards."
He casually flicked it across the table, "Feel for yourself what it's like to touch the precious metal, and give it to Bruce afterwards."
He grinned, "And yes, the Pride of the Black Forest is indeed a Verbena ship."

[Investigating Avatar Restoration, Cita's apartment]

S7trif3 wrote:"If we're to convince anyone, we are going to need to be standing on very solid ground on the matter. It is harder in her case, as she is a full Nephandus, whether we wish it or not, or whether she wishes it or not. It limits our time but we do need to have an answer."

Anja wrote:Cita nodded at that and she sigh.
"I am afraid it do not look good, even with Colin's apprentice Anna she would have been sentenced to Gilgul if she had not been so physically weak that trying to enact such a traumatic punishment would likely kill her during the ritual and then you would have a wounded, angry Avatar pulled from the Host an now freed from it to deal with and nobody want that."
The spirit healer said.
"So she is spared but just that she is a child and where lured into joining the Nephandi as a kid would not be enough, unless we have something solid to present the Council with they will not spare Cadence Clearwater, and adult who joined the Fallen."

He nodded, "As I mentioned at our Cabal meeting earlier, the precedent is there for Avatars who are too directly dangerous to tamper with - such as that of Master Ir, Anna... and previously that of Mattea Carlyle. As Master Tolle pointed out, having been in a Caul is not illegal, being Fallen is... which means that we'd have to prove Miss Clearwater as either not Fallen, or as too dangerous to touch."

S7trif3 wrote:"Vampire meditations? Hrm...do you think that would help with the...urges? If so perhaps Kyle will want to know about that. As for Ms Florintine, I have occasionally been able to communicate via sign language with her, I'm very slow and limited but she at least responded. Sometimes she is more present than others, but I will continue to see if she will speak with me."As for myself...I suspect that sometimes, if the reason they went through the caul was to save another, and if they were given a good upbringing, there may be some way to help them. Aside from what we suspect relating to Ms Florintine," he said carefully, "there have been other bits and pieces, but it has yet to come together for me. The last one is this book on the Umbra..." he held it up, the spine showing it was written by Lady Crexia. "If we're going to talk about anything more sensitive in a concrete fashion than that though, the room might need to be sealed."

He nodded, "The purpose for the vampire's meditation is specifically to control the Beast, instead of the other way around - and it will be less physically demanding than Miss Florentine's method, which is why Anna will have to rely on it. I should like a look at Lady Crexia's book, though... heh, might make Steelhaven Hall a little wealthier if we could convince her to autograph it when she visits..."

Anja wrote:"I think that if you have managed to communicate with Miss Florentine Mr Roth Hicks then those attempts should continue you might be able to get something useful out of her. Well we do know a few cases where we know that someone have Fallen to attempt to save others and their widderslaintes have been able to resist their destructive urges but I am not sure we have enough examples to draw a conclusion Mr Roth Hicks."
Cita said then she nodded.
"Yes the room should be sealed, should you do so or shall I?"
The Virtual Adepts asked.

S7trif3 wrote:"To be fair, it is not as if it the subject were pursued beyond the logical means of using it to find them. I cannot be the one to seal the room, otherwise it will not work when i speak. My voice will cut through it like a hot knife does butter. I know Colin's scrambling rote seems to help," he suggested, and waited to see who would help him out.

Anja wrote:"I think I might be able to fix that Mr Roth Hicks."
Cita said as she pulled up her lap top an started writing.
"Ok having Mr Wainwright's scramblers going as well is probably a good idea, however even with your voice I assume there is a limit for how far it will be heard."
She said as she started a program.
"Along with a general ward against magickal scrying, the distance inside the walls on all side of this room, and the roof and floor as well is about five miles, please let me know if you wish to leave so I can end the effect before the door is opened."
The spirit healer said and grinned a little.
"I doubt anyone will be able to overhear our conversation."

S7trif3 wrote:"Hrm, last time I tried to see how far it got it went down the entire hallway. That was before I...progressed somewhat, I believe..."

Anja wrote:"I doubt you can be heard five miles Mr Roth Hicks but just in case perhaps it is best if you use your tablet for more...sensitive topics."
Cita said as she regarded Adley.

He nodded and pulled out his twisted wand, quickly going through the evasive pattern in the air and pointing toward each wall, the ceiling, and the floor, "I'll put up the scrambler - it won't silence Adley's voice, but anyone trying to listen in won't make out a single coherent phrase."

((OOC: Arete rolls for the scrambler - 5,6,6 - 8,0,0... good luck understanding anything through the walls. ))

Anja wrote:Cita hesitated then she gently opened the bag of sand an touched it, there was a slight smile on her face.
"My wrists still ache from the Primium cuffs had had worn in the cell, but I don't care, I stand at the view screen of the Mesopotamia, seeing the Umbra for the first time, seeing spirits. The Void Engineers saved me just before my planned execution, and where the other Technocrats would kill me for my abilities with spirit they appreciate it, the woman at my side are going to be my new teacher, she is kind and warm as she shows me the wonders of the Umbra as the ship leaves earth, for the first time since I was arrested I feel...safe, I have direction, I am a Void Engineer now and I will no longer have to hide what I can do."
She whispered softly then she looked at you for a moment.
"Well now that is a very old memory."
The spirit healer said as she removed her fingers from the sand.

S7trif3 wrote:He listned to Cita as she related her memory, one eyebrow raised. It was one thing to know that she was a former Technocrat, another to hear the moment she became one as if it were happening right then. "I would like to see this sand also, Colin as I've not really got the chance. Can you tell us more about where it comes from?" he asked, wanting to make sure he had the whole story of it.

Anja wrote:"I was a Void Engineer in the Union Mr Roth Hicks not a Virtual Adept."
Cita admitted.
"But I was a personal friend of Rodger Zachery, and when the Adepts left, knowing I had become disillusioned with the Union he sent me a communication inviting me to join the exodus and I accepted, he initiated me into the Virtual Adepts that first day that we ran so I am fully legal, I was a full member of the the Virtual Adepts when we accepted Dr Spence's amnesty, in case you where worried about it."
The spirit healer explained.

S7trif3 wrote:"Not worried so much as confused. You were going to be executed because you knew how to work with spirits?"

Anja wrote:"Yeah the Technocracy do not allow it's members to work with spirits, they have something they call Dimensional Science, which is limited but allow for things like traveling in the Umbra, to learn anything of what the Traditions call the Sphere of Spirit past that is a capital offense, but the Void Engineers do not adhere to that and ignore the rules in that regard."
Cita said and sigh.
"So yes my former Convention sentenced me to death for learning to work with the Sphere of Spirit past what is allowed but the Void Engineers saved me before I could be...terminated."

S7trif3 wrote:"I see. Why? If they know that spirits do exist, then why is it forbidden? It would seem they are ignoring a rather large chunk of reality, until they can get it to go away...yet it's persisted before they existed."

Anja wrote:"For exactly that reason, to ignore something, force it out o reality until it go away and for control over it's own operatives."
The spirit healer explained.
"They can relate to spirits in the Umbra as transdimentional entities and that is all that is allowed."

He nodded, "It's much easier for the Union to dismiss something that does not exist..."
He smiled thinly, "It's good that you can enjoy a bit of reminiscing with the sand, though... Fallen individuals are less pleasantly affected by it. And the sand... will be excreted by Anna over the coming years, as she slowly unwrings her Avatar. She'll be rather embarrassed at sprinkling it everywhere, like on public transportation and such, but we'll be careful with collecting it as meticulously as can be done... it's a potent substance. Very painful for the Fallen when turned into ammunition..."

S7trif3 wrote:"Avatars were not always experienced the same way as they are now by their hosts, perhaps that plays a role as well?"

Anja wrote:"I have had a chance to examine a few Founts belonging to senior magi, and they truly behave and function much differently than an Avatar."
Cita commented.

S7trif3 wrote:He nodded. "Perhaps we are looking at things backwards. From the perspective of a spirit, they are what they do and time is not an important aspect of them unless for avatars when they are joined with a host and can experience it with us. If the nature of the avatar somehow changed from Font to what they are sometimes like now, and we do not quite know the reasons though paradox may be part of it, then these spirits would not have a job to do so to speak. Perhaps they returned to their original plane of existence until they were needed again, or found their job elsewhere. This is entirely speculation, of course. But then the same crux remains as to why did the avatars as we know them now shift..."

Anja wrote:"If we can even call the Psycopomps spirits the way we know the term. Your speculation are interesting though and that might indeed be it, but we do not know, no one knows whee the Psycopomps are or why they left, all we know is that without them the joining between Avatar and host have become imperfect, and for good and ill we now hear their voices rather than them just being a part of use that give us magickal abilities."
Cita said and nodded.
"Some say Master Teomim knew, some say they wrote about Psycopomps in their grimoire but as that to is lost, it is hard to know what they might have known."

S7trif3 wrote:"That's true...which means if we're to bring one we better damn know what we're dealing with...as for imperfection...how do we know it's imperfect now? This relationship we can now build upon seems to me much more developed than something that is just a part of us...but I do suppose it is less whole, even if it may be more...hrm, it's like now we can communicate with them and they us, at least some may. And in order to do that, they had to be separate somewhat from us, and not just a part of us. If we talked to our toe, then our toe would not give us much answer."

Anja wrote:"I am not sure we can know what we are dealing with when it comes to the Psycopomps Mr Roth Hicks."
Cita said and sigh.

Anja wrote:"They talk to us now Mr Roth Hicks, because they have to. A Fount do not have to speak, not unless the host completely fall of his or her path though insanity or some other cruel fate, for what the Avatar wish to learn it have been taken to a host with the same goals as it, who will naturally face the challenges needed, and so it can just be a part of the host with no need to talk, a perfect bond."
The Virtual Adept explained.

S7trif3 wrote:He raised an eyebrow at her. "Er...who said that?"

Anja wrote:"Master Porthos have mentioned it, that Master Teomim worked with the psycopomps or at least studied them."
She replied.
"It is said no one where a greater expert on Avatars than Master Teomim, and some said he worked on a ritual to join with a psycopomp, to become one with one of them,whatever it is true or not though, well that is another matter."

He nodded, "I do believe the stories; Teomim achieved much that was only speculated on... unfortunately, it would not be safe for anyone to try to get to their Grimoire at this time, but I think the older ritual has a better than zero chance of success..."
He pondered, "As for the difference between Founts and Avatars... I'm not so certain as to how different the two are inherently - it would seem to me that it is the bond that is different, rather than the Avatar's nature; as evidence, I would name Lady Dalisse, of the Diedne, who had a Fount until Guernicus experimented on her and severed her connection for a time - her Avatar returned as a distinct entity with a nasty scar. And Louis DuMonte had a Fount, but frequently dreamed of sensing a blue obsidian dragon staring at him in his dreams - the same blue glass dragon that Anna now wants to be less lazy. These two specific cases would strongly imply that Avatars are not so changed from when they were Founts, but how seamlessly they merge with a Mage has changed, without the Psychopomps to carefully perform the perfect merging..."

S7trif3 wrote:"And then we shall see if it is wise to pursue trying it..."

Anja wrote:"Get me a list of what is needed Mr Wainwright and I will see what I can find on Horizon."
Cita offered.

He nodded, "I'll make sure you get a copy of the translation well before we act on it."

Anja wrote:"We are going to have to see, though perhaps we should try to get the help of oh...I think her name slips my mind but the Cultist psychiatrist that live in Boston, to help Susannah recover faster."
The spirit healer suggested.

S7trif3 wrote:He frowned. "Yes, she will need help...it will take time for her to recover."

Anja wrote:"Yes I can not even imagine the poor girl's suffering, it will not be a easy road to recovery for her."
The Virtual Adept said softly.

He nodded, "...I can imagine her suffering. And I personally can't really think of anything I can do to help her directly; Dr. Boudavich, however, should be quite capable of finding the best approach... we might want to invite her to help out right after the transplantation is done."

[Adley, Colin, Tane and Serge] (Cabal meeting 10 in the morning Wednesday 30/9 2015)

"Sure thing." Serge said with a smile. "But you know what...your right. That is a boring answer. I'm not gonna change my bet or anything but how about this? As a side...let's say prediction...if Mr. Wainwright doesn't win then I'll also say that neither will win the debate. Neither side will give in and it'll end in a stalemate."

"I will take that bet Mr Yager though I hope you are wrong. Ok then the looser buy the winner's drink?"
The large Orphan said sounding a bit amused.

"Talk to her...force her into a debate duel. Either way works." Serge said with a nod of agreement.

Bruce nodded at that.

"He won't. He's a pretty cool dude." Serge agreed.

"I am not sure if cool are a word I would use to descrive Master Haagen, but he is a kind man, and his older apprentice Arn is a good man, I think he will do very well with Cava."
Bruce agreed.

"Yeah. She seemed completely normal when we were playing together in Rosa's room." Serge said trying to recall how exactly he had felt when he had met Cava.

Cava had been a completely normal little girl, she liked cats and princesses and cars and she was sweet and kind with the others.

Serge nodded in agreement. "Yeah, that's the most common use of mad scientist clones. Either that or creating an army of himself or bodies for his freaky spirit people to inhabit."

"Yeah I heard about that, seriously but this Wallace Jace character needed a hobby."
Bruce grunted.

Colin frowned, "There is one legal precedent of which I am aware, and that is a certain Spirit Master in Chicago, one Master Ir, who surrendered to the Traditions, and whose Avatar... butchered half a dozen Spirit Masters in self defense. That precedent will be what Anna relies on for her trial, as she cannot be safely... well... if it can be adequately proven that an Avatar is strong and willful enough to lash back at anyone tampering with it, that might be enough. Short of that, we'll need to prove her Avatar is not Fallen. It's certainly a tall order either way..."

"No I can not imagine it will be easy to prove that a Fallen woman is not Fallen, I guess the only thing not predetermined about her trial is whatever or not she get to live afterwards, and whatever or not she would want to."
Bruce said and sigh.
"Am I a horrible person if I say that I hope Miss Clearwater choose to die since if she is alive then Adeptus Ries will feel obligated to care for her."

He nodded, "At this point, we cannot afford to break down the old to build anew; strategies that work for small groups are often only effective for small groups, and break down utterly when small groups come together to form something greater. It's the very reason a pyramid-shaped hierarchy is the only way to structure a country, a corporation, or other large bureaucratic organization if there's any intent to have a lasting structure."

Bruce just nodded at that.

He grimaced, "More like molten wine gum. And a little less pleasant."

"Yeah I hope to avoid any close encounters with it."
The Artificer said and grunted.

He grinned wryly, "Challenging to a knife duel would be an intimidation move more than a power move; I am not particularly well trained with knives, and I don't know how well Miss Rozzo is trained with them, so it would be a gamble where I had no feel for the odds. I may be stronger and more agile than her, but that only counts for so much against skill... And if you buy one another a beer after the duel, please, at least make it something that's not sex in a canoe."

"The girl is a Verbena my suspicion is that she can handle a blade."
Bruce said then he grinned.
"Nah we will get something good."

He grinned, "I'd take that wager, Bruce - the debate will be arbitrated, after all, and whether or not one party decides to give in will be irrelevant to whether the Deacons consider either point adequately argued and argument upheld..."

"Very well looser buy the winners drinks then?"
The Orphan suggested.

He chuckled, "I suppose a battle of wits with two poisoned goblets would be a bit of a tall order in any case... but when it comes to battling anti-vaccine bullshit, I do believe I have quite the arsenal in stock. Unlike Miss Rozzo, I can provide hard evidence through simple scryings across space and time to show what things looked like without vaccines, in case the Deacons need a reminder... One shouldn't trust everything one reads on the internet, but on a headstone, well..."

"You could always ask her to let herself be bit by a cat or something and then have the injury sealed and ask her if she is then as opposed to getting a vaccine."
Bruce said and grinned.

He nodded, "Cava is a normal girl, independent of Wallace Jace. She was conceived by his hand, certainly, but the girl's mother managed to escape and hide with a Chantry to protect the unborn child, and Jace never found them again, and apparently never even found out that the girl had been born and lived."

Bruce nodded.
"Well that is a small favor at least."

He grinned, "I like your idea, Mr. Yager - a picture book with Princess Katie getting her much-needed vaccines before traveling to strange new places could even be a bestseller to concerned parents. As for Jace's reasons - he was a Progenitor; I'd wager he wanted Cava as a perfect organ donor for himself as he aged; perhaps not a replacement body, but a fresh supply of spare parts..."

"Using the girl as an organ donor is even more disturbing."
Bruce grunted.
"I like the idea of such a picture book though, it can tell kids what to expect in a language they can understand, make the whole thing seam less scary."

He smiled wryly, "Question not the Deaconess' decisions, but appreciate them as they are..."

"Indeed and don't try to understand them either for that might just drive you mad."
Your Cabalmate said dryly.

He went over to a drawer and dug around a bit, before pulling out a single bullet, without casing and neatly polished, "Bruce, I believe you wanted one of these, but I forgot to give it to you earlier. Mr. Yager, this is a Primium bullet, dug out of a dead Nephandus and thoroughly cleaned afterwards."
He casually flicked it across the table, "Feel for yourself what it's like to touch the precious metal, and give it to Bruce afterwards."
He grinned, "And yes, the Pride of the Black Forest is indeed a Verbena ship."

"Yes I did want to examine one of the Primium bullets, thank you Colin."
Bruce said with a nod.

"I hope that is not the case..."

"I would not put it past a Nephandus."
Bruce said and frowned.

Serge had an uncertain look on him when Colin assured the group of his victory. "I mean, that would certainly assure your victory against most people. But don't you also have to account for what Bianca is going to say as well? I doubt she'll deny the black plague and polio and those other illnesses that caused millions of deaths. But what if she says that allowing the use of vaccines hardens the Technocracy's hold on Consensus or something weird like that?"

"I suspect the kid is right, Miss Rozzo is not going to deny that illness was a problem in the past but she is also going to claim that vaccines limit magickal potential and expose people to other conditions and that as mages we do not need to take that risk as we can heal almost any problem and if we end up with something we can not heal then that is less of a risk than the vaccines are."
Bruce said and frowned.

"Man that's good to hear. It's certainly a stroke of good luck that Jace never found out what happened." Serge said although he wondered if Jace really was as ignorant as the rest of the mages believed.

"Good luck indeed."
Bruce said and nodded.

"Probably wouldn't straight up call them vaccines. Maybe something like medicinal potions shaped like syringes. But drawing a proper picture book is something I wouldn't mind doing." Serge said with a smile.

"No it is probably best to call them what they are, through Princess Katie probably gets magickal vaccines, it is best to give kids an accurate understanding of what is happening including that it will hurt a little bit, knowledge is always good, but then put a positive spin on it."
Bruce suggested.

He looked at it carefully, before passing it quickly to Bruce and saying, "Ok, I don't know if I'm imagining it but that thing just feels wrong."

The bullet felt cold to the touch, and holding it, your magickal magination felt furter away as if casting spells would simply be harder, like if you where more mundane. Bruce nodded and took the bullet and put it in his pocket.
"Yeah it takes some getting used to."
He said simply.

(Avatar Restoration Discussion Cita's Room.)

He nodded, "As I mentioned at our Cabal meeting earlier, the precedent is there for Avatars who are too directly dangerous to tamper with - such as that of Master Ir, Anna... and previously that of Mattea Carlyle. As Master Tolle pointed out, having been in a Caul is not illegal, being Fallen is... which means that we'd have to prove Miss Clearwater as either not Fallen, or as too dangerous to touch."

"Indeed the problem is that this will give us nothing to give Miss Clearwater more time for us to find a solution for her."
Cita said and sigh then she turned towards you.
"I got word from Horizon by the way, Miss Carlyle's trial have been concluded and er punishment is set for Wednesday morning."
The Virtual Adept said sadly.
"I thought you might want to know."

He nodded and pulled out his twisted wand, quickly going through the evasive pattern in the air and pointing toward each wall, the ceiling, and the floor, "I'll put up the scrambler - it won't silence Adley's voice, but anyone trying to listen in won't make out a single coherent phrase."

You get the feeling that your spell went exceptionally well, no one on the outside would be understand much of what they might overhear.

He nodded, "It's much easier for the Union to dismiss something that does not exist..."
He smiled thinly, "It's good that you can enjoy a bit of reminiscing with the sand, though... Fallen individuals are less pleasantly affected by it. And the sand... will be excreted by Anna over the coming years, as she slowly unwrings her Avatar. She'll be rather embarrassed at sprinkling it everywhere, like on public transportation and such, but we'll be careful with collecting it as meticulously as can be done... it's a potent substance. Very painful for the Fallen when turned into ammunition..."

"Yes the Union like to ignore what they do not want to acknowledge exists."
Cita said then she looked at the sand.
"Interesting...so this sand comes from Anna's Avatar? Physical manifestations from her soul, that is fascinating. You know I would love the chance to have a look at your apprentice's soul at some point."
The spirit healer said.
"It sounds fascinating."

He nodded, "I do believe the stories; Teomim achieved much that was only speculated on... unfortunately, it would not be safe for anyone to try to get to their Grimoire at this time, but I think the older ritual has a better than zero chance of success..."

Cita nodded at that.
"If the ritual in your book is safe then yes it might be a boon indeed Mr Wainwright."

He pondered, "As for the difference between Founts and Avatars... I'm not so certain as to how different the two are inherently - it would seem to me that it is the bond that is different, rather than the Avatar's nature; as evidence, I would name Lady Dalisse, of the Diedne, who had a Fount until Guernicus experimented on her and severed her connection for a time - her Avatar returned as a distinct entity with a nasty scar. And Louis DuMonte had a Fount, but frequently dreamed of sensing a blue obsidian dragon staring at him in his dreams - the same blue glass dragon that Anna now wants to be less lazy. These two specific cases would strongly imply that Avatars are not so changed from when they were Founts, but how seamlessly they merge with a Mage has changed, without the Psychopomps to carefully perform the perfect merging..."

"I suspect you are right Mr Wainwright. You are saying that Anna was a member of the first Cabal, she is quite interesting that girl of yours, but yes about Faunts and Avatars I agree it is not the souls who have changed but how they interact with their hosts."
The Virtual Adept said and nodded.

He nodded, "I'll make sure you get a copy of the translation well before we act on it."

"Thank you I appreciate it."
Cita said an smiled.

He nodded, "...I can imagine her suffering. And I personally can't really think of anything I can do to help her directly; Dr. Boudavich, however, should be quite capable of finding the best approach... we might want to invite her to help out right after the transplantation is done."

"I agree and I will write the good doctor and ask her to help."
Cita agreed.

"I really hope it is, at least when I'm not trying, otherwise I might have to move to the country."

"You are not disturbingly loud when you are talking Mr Roth Hicks but your voice do carry."
Cita said and nodded.

"Thank you both."

Cita just nodded at that.

"I keep hearing you say that and I keep trying to understand it...has anyone looked to see if there is any discrete change before and after one experiences the material?" he asked, tipping his head. "We have seen some of its effects..." He looked both curious and slightly cautious of it, though not full of dread and disgust as he had with the vampire blood - at least not yet, as there wasn't a reason to be so far.

"That is a good point, a very good point, we should have someone who agree to let me examine their Avatar before and after touching the sand, preferably both a Fallen and a normal mage, though getting a Fallen to agree to it might be hard."
Cita said and nodded.

"The umbra and it's denizens are still there though, it was there before we were anywhere. I imagine that's why the gauntlet keeps getting thicker though, sometimes that means it keeps bad things out but...well, we are certainly glad that you were not killed for your knowledge and that you are here with us now."

"Thank you, I am glad for that as well Mr Roth Hicks and yes the Umbra is still there but it becomes increasingly harder to get into it, which suit the Union just fine."
She said and frowned.

"Calling something we don't understand enough about isn't the wisest course of action."

"That is true but if it work a Psycopomp can make the transferal of the secondary Avatar that much easier."

"Possibly, but if one could dream of the font, or if one could, after time, sense their avatar as a discrete entity and it was previously a font and quiescent...how do you know that is a sign of imperfection? What if it is a sign of something else? Sometimes, things change but that doesn't mean they've become poorer for it...or, what if something had to become different so that it could become better?" he thought. "I know this is all speculation...and it is quite possible that all of these things are true, for the path is not a straight arrow..."

"I guess the reason why it is thought that Faunts are better is that mages with them are more powerful. They can dra Quintessence right out of the Quintessence pool and handle flows that would rip a moern Avatar right out of the host's soul with ease. Then again they can not store Quintessence in them by meditation like we do and perhaps power is not always the best way to determine if something is better or worse."
Cita said and nodded.

He nodded, made himself a note in his journal for himself. Well, apparently this was supposed to be something that he had a knowledge of, somehow, someway, in a where that was his spirit. If only he could figure out how to 'read' himself. "Mhmhmm...." he muttered, more to himself than anyone.

The spirit healer gave you a curious look but she did not ask, she assumed you would tell her what you where thinking about when you where ready.

[Cabal Meeting, 10 AM, Wednesday September 30th]

Anja wrote:"No I can not imagine it will be easy to prove that a Fallen woman is not Fallen, I guess the only thing not predetermined about her trial is whatever or not she get to live afterwards, and whatever or not she would want to."
Bruce said and sigh.
"Am I a horrible person if I say that I hope Miss Clearwater choose to die since if she is alive then Adeptus Ries will feel obligated to care for her."

Colin nodded, "No, you're not horrible for hoping that... Sometimes, the only way to end suffering is by ending a life. Ask our Euthanatoi; I'm sure they would not want to see Miss Clearwater forced to live, either..."

Anja wrote:"Yeah I hope to avoid any close encounters with it."
The Artificer said and grunted.

He frowned, "Actually, I would personally advocate voluntarily experiencing it once; it feels awful, but if done under controlled circumstances, it could help keep a clear head in case you were forced into comparable circumstances later. The devil you know sort of thing."

Jeremy wrote:Serge had an uncertain look on him when Colin assured the group of his victory. "I mean, that would certainly assure your victory against most people. But don't you also have to account for what Bianca is going to say as well? I doubt she'll deny the black plague and polio and those other illnesses that caused millions of deaths. But what if she says that allowing the use of vaccines hardens the Technocracy's hold on Consensus or something weird like that?"

Anja wrote:"I suspect the kid is right, Miss Rozzo is not going to deny that illness was a problem in the past but she is also going to claim that vaccines limit magickal potential and expose people to other conditions and that as mages we do not need to take that risk as we can heal almost any problem and if we end up with something we can not heal then that is less of a risk than the vaccines are."
Bruce said and frowned.

He nodded, "Oh, I do take Miss Rozzo's arguments into account - and I am already contemplating counterarguments to the more obvious arguments she might choose. As well as the inherent contradictions in several of the more common sets of anti-vaccine claims. It alone won't secure my victory, but I have confidence in the strength of my evidence an position, and I... just might find an ace up my sleeve."

Anja wrote:"The girl is a Verbena my suspicion is that she can handle a blade."
Bruce said then he grinned.
"Nah we will get something good."

He nodded, "Good."

Anja wrote:"I will take that bet Mr Yager though I hope you are wrong. Ok then the looser buy the winner's drink?"
The large Orphan said sounding a bit amused.

He grinned.

Anja wrote:"You could always ask her to let herself be bit by a cat or something and then have the injury sealed and ask her if she is then as opposed to getting a vaccine."
Bruce said and grinned.

He pondered, "Slightly appealing, but rabies is rather extreme..."

Anja wrote:"Using the girl as an organ donor is even more disturbing."
Bruce grunted.
"I like the idea of such a picture book though, it can tell kids what to expect in a language they can understand, make the whole thing seam less scary."

Jeremy wrote:"Probably wouldn't straight up call them vaccines. Maybe something like medicinal potions shaped like syringes. But drawing a proper picture book is something I wouldn't mind doing." Serge said with a smile.

Anja wrote:"No it is probably best to call them what they are, through Princess Katie probably gets magickal vaccines, it is best to give kids an accurate understanding of what is happening including that it will hurt a little bit, knowledge is always good, but then put a positive spin on it."
Bruce suggested.

He nodded, "Call them by their name, and don't invent some new euphemism for them. Make it clear that what Princess Katie gets is a vaccine, magical or mundane, and make it clear it is to give her body a better defense against diseases."

Anja wrote:"I am not sure if cool are a word I would use to descrive Master Haagen, but he is a kind man, and his older apprentice Arn is a good man, I think he will do very well with Cava."
Bruce agreed.

He pondered, "Calm and collected does rather fit Master Haagen most of the time; I'd say that definition of 'cool' certainly works."

Anja wrote:"Yeah I heard about that, seriously but this Wallace Jace character needed a hobby."
Bruce grunted.

He grimaced, "He needed an extended stay on the bloody serum."

Anja wrote:"Yes I did want to examine one of the Primium bullets, thank you Colin."
Bruce said with a nod.

Jeremy wrote:"Thanks Mr. Wainwright." Serge said as he helped himself to the diagram, carefully tearing it out of the book and folding it so that he could place it into his pocket.

"I'm guessing you dug the bullet out because Primium is a pretty rare and precious. Cause the other reasons I can think of are pretty sinister." the Ecstatic said catching the bullet with one hand as it slid across the table.

He looked at it carefully, before passing it quickly to Bruce and saying, "Ok, I don't know if I'm imagining it but that thing just feels wrong."

Anja wrote:The bullet felt cold to the touch, and holding it, your magickal magination felt furter away as if casting spells would simply be harder, like if you where more mundane. Bruce nodded and took the bullet and put it in his pocket.
"Yeah it takes some getting used to."
He said simply.

S7trif3 wrote:He smiled a bit at his enthusiasm, even if how he 'met' the ship wasn't the best memory. Colin discussing the bullet's previous whereabouts however made him eye it with a slight frown. "I remember all of that...just days ago. It feels like a thousand years."

Jeremy wrote:"Time's funny like that isn't it?" Serge said with a sympathetic smile. "Goes by when your having fun and seems to stand still when you want something to end. Thankfully it should speed up now."

He shook his head, "Actually, I did not dig the bullets out... the Nephandus did that, in the hopes of healing the injury. That's the problem with Primium bullets; the wounds are... resistant to magical healing. And I would not say the description of how time passes is entirely appropriate; the past week has been... draining. Between a couple of Labyrinths, assorted troubles associated with that, visions of the past and future, dealing with the consequences of things that started centuries ago... it's been a hell of a week, and it was barely long enough to get everything done..."

[Investigating Avatar Restoration, Cita's apartment]

S7trif3 wrote:"Here. I thought to study it to follow up on some leads we got from the friends that sent you with that missive, but I haven't quite gotten what I know is in there out of it yet. Story of my life so far..." He held the book out to him carefully.

He accepted the book and quickly skimmed its contents, "Hum, this should be good for more intermediary studies..."

S7trif3 wrote:"I really hope it is, at least when I'm not trying, otherwise I might have to move to the country."

Anja wrote:"You are not disturbingly loud when you are talking Mr Roth Hicks but your voice do carry."
Cita said and nodded.

He nodded sagely, "It only seems loud when everyone is silenced... I overheard him through the door once, when Chief Morgan had soundproofed his office; bit of an inconvenience, really."

Anja wrote:"Indeed the problem is that this will give us nothing to give Miss Clearwater more time for us to find a solution for her."
Cita said and sigh then she turned towards you.
"I got word from Horizon by the way, Miss Carlyle's trial have been concluded and er punishment is set for Wednesday morning."
The Virtual Adept said sadly.
"I thought you might want to know."

He frowned, then nodded, "I'll have to go up there Tuesday, then... Adley, care to tag along, bid miss Carlyle farewell properly? We'll have to get a better navigator than myself, too, though I can pilot the shuttle there, with your Pater's permission."

Anja wrote:"Yes the Union like to ignore what they do not want to acknowledge exists."
Cita said then she looked at the sand.
"Interesting...so this sand comes from Anna's Avatar? Physical manifestations from her soul, that is fascinating. You know I would love the chance to have a look at your apprentice's soul at some point."
The spirit healer said.
"It sounds fascinating."

S7trif3 wrote:"I keep hearing you say that and I keep trying to understand it...has anyone looked to see if there is any discrete change before and after one experiences the material?" he asked, tipping his head. "We have seen some of its effects..." He looked both curious and slightly cautious of it, though not full of dread and disgust as he had with the vampire blood - at least not yet, as there wasn't a reason to be so far.

Anja wrote:"That is a good point, a very good point, we should have someone who agree to let me examine their Avatar before and after touching the sand, preferably both a Fallen and a normal mage, though getting a Fallen to agree to it might be hard."
Cita said and nodded.

He nodded, "You'll get to examine Anna soon; she's a bit nervous about examinations of any sort yet, but I think I can convince her that you'll just look and not touch. As for testing the sand on Fallen individuals, ehh... Kyle offered to touch it, when Dr. Lee and I brought him to the hospital for a CAT-scan. I never held him to that, though, since the experience would likely be remarkably unpleasant, and Chief Morgan would probably not approve. One thing is accidentally causing discomfort as a side effect, but the sand would be... well, unacceptable."

Anja wrote:Cita nodded at that.
"If the ritual in your book is safe then yes it might be a boon indeed Mr Wainwright."

S7trif3 wrote:"Calling something we don't understand enough about isn't the wisest course of action."

Anja wrote:"That is true but if it work a Psycopomp can make the transferal of the secondary Avatar that much easier."

He nodded, "The ritual in the book should be safe; the book is 'The Creation of a Mage's Child' - pertaining to creating what's essentially a clone of a Mage, complete with a new Avatar thanks to the summoning of said Psychopomp. It's not a particularly good way to get a compatible apprentice, though, since the Mage's Child dies with the original..."

S7trif3 wrote:"I suppose that is so...I cannot imagine not having a relationship like that with my own avatar though but it was the same before, when the older magii first started to hear about it from younger ones."

He nodded, "It was a strange period in time for many reasons..."

Anja wrote:"I suspect you are right Mr Wainwright. You are saying that Anna was a member of the first Cabal, she is quite interesting that girl of yours, but yes about Faunts and Avatars I agree it is not the souls who have changed but how they interact with their hosts."
The Virtual Adept said and nodded.

S7trif3 wrote:"Possibly, but if one could dream of the font, or if one could, after time, sense their avatar as a discrete entity and it was previously a font and quiescent...how do you know that is a sign of imperfection? What if it is a sign of something else? Sometimes, things change but that doesn't mean they've become poorer for it...or, what if something had to become different so that it could become better?" he thought. "I know this is all speculation...and it is quite possible that all of these things are true, for the path is not a straight arrow..."

Anja wrote:"I guess the reason why it is thought that Faunts are better is that mages with them are more powerful. They can dra Quintessence right out of the Quintessence pool and handle flows that would rip a moern Avatar right out of the host's soul with ease. Then again they can not store Quintessence in them by meditation like we do and perhaps power is not always the best way to determine if something is better or worse."
Cita said and nodded.

He pondered, "I suppose it could be possible that the Avatars somehow decided that they did not learn and grow well enough when the bond was perfect with the Psychopomps' help, and so they dismissed their service, as it were, and merged with less perfectly matched hosts, enabling greater potential for growth and learning."

Anja wrote:"I agree and I will write the good doctor and ask her to help."
Cita agreed.

He nodded, "She was badly injured in the capture of Wallace Jace, though; not sure if she's back in her office yet..."

[Adley, Colin, Tane and Serge] (Cabal meeting 10 in the morning Wednesday 30/9 2015)

Colin nodded, "No, you're not horrible for hoping that... Sometimes, the only way to end suffering is by ending a life. Ask our Euthanatoi; I'm sure they would not want to see Miss Clearwater forced to live, either..."

"I doubt she will be forced to live but if she make the choice to before....that then she will need care and I fear the Adeptus will not be able to sit by and not help her in any way he can since he feels guilty about her capture."
Bruce said and frowned.

He frowned, "Actually, I would personally advocate voluntarily experiencing it once; it feels awful, but if done under controlled circumstances, it could help keep a clear head in case you were forced into comparable circumstances later. The devil you know sort of thing."

The Artificer considered for a moment then he frowned again and nodded.
"Since the Technocracy use it you are right I would want a clear head if I am ever captured, I will talk with Richard about it."

He nodded, "Oh, I do take Miss Rozzo's arguments into account - and I am already contemplating counterarguments to the more obvious arguments she might choose. As well as the inherent contradictions in several of the more common sets of anti-vaccine claims. It alone won't secure my victory, but I have confidence in the strength of my evidence an position, and I... just might find an ace up my sleeve."

"I am sure you will be able to have some good arguments to counter hers with, I also saw this program on Discovery, I usually have it on in the background while doing some of the more tedious work, anyway there are allot of anti vaccxers who are scared of needles themselves as several of them have been shown to have no problem with oral vaccines when said vaccines have more of the substances they worry about and are more dangerous than the ones you inject but buying into a new age whoo hoo conspiracy theory has less social stigma than admitting to fear, this probably do not apply to Miss Rozzo after all she slice herself open for her magic all the time, but if you get nowhere you can always challenge her on it see if you can shake her foundation a bit."
Bruce suggested and grunted.

He pondered, "Slightly appealing, but rabies is rather extreme..."

"I was more thinking tetanus but rabies might be a more in your face example."
Bruce said and grinned.

He pondered, "Calm and collected does rather fit Master Haagen most of the time; I'd say that definition of 'cool' certainly works."

"Hum....you do actually have a point there Colin."
Bruce said and grinned.

He grimaced, "He needed an extended stay on the bloody serum."

"He did indeed but as we where told by the Quesitor lady that came for the prisoners, for Wallace Jace considering how dangerous he s they already has the Main Sentencing Hall ready for him, right now I suspect the serum will not do much for him for now he he very, very, very dead."
Bruce said with a slight grin.
"And in his case he deserve it."

He shook his head, "Actually, I did not dig the bullets out... the Nephandus did that, in the hopes of healing the injury. That's the problem with Primium bullets; the wounds are... resistant to magical healing. And I would not say the description of how time passes is entirely appropriate; the past week has been... draining. Between a couple of Labyrinths, assorted troubles associated with that, visions of the past and future, dealing with the consequences of things that started centuries ago... it's been a hell of a week, and it was barely long enough to get everything done..."

"You got this out of the asshole at the villa Node?"
Bruce asked.
"Damn that feels like a long time ago and it have not even been a full week, only six days."
The other Orphan said and he shook his head.

[Investigating Avatar Restoration, Cita's apartment]

He nodded sagely, "It only seems loud when everyone is silenced... I overheard him through the door once, when Chief Morgan had soundproofed his office; bit of an inconvenience, really."

Cita nodded at that and she looked at Adley for a moment.
"Magick at times have unusual side effects."
She commented.

He frowned, then nodded, "I'll have to go up there Tuesday, then... Adley, care to tag along, bid miss Carlyle farewell properly? We'll have to get a better navigator than myself, too, though I can pilot the shuttle there, with your Pater's permission."

"Feel free to come along with me I have chartered a cabin at a ship to Horizon Tuesday morning, I have patients to see."
Cita said then she frowned.
"I am sure the girl will appreciate it, at least in some way she must be scared out of her wits."

He nodded, "You'll get to examine Anna soon; she's a bit nervous about examinations of any sort yet, but I think I can convince her that you'll just look and not touch.

"I would not want the girl scared and yes I will not touch her Avatar and would stop if she asked me to, but we can wait until she is comfortable."
Cita said and she smiled slightly.

As for testing the sand on Fallen individuals, ehh... Kyle offered to touch it, when Dr. Lee and I brought him to the hospital for a CAT-scan. I never held him to that, though, since the experience would likely be remarkably unpleasant, and Chief Morgan would probably not approve. One thing is accidentally causing discomfort as a side effect, but the sand would be... well, unacceptable."

"I am not sure doing such a test on a fifteen year old kid would be...a good idea, as it would involve a detailed examination of his Avatar, potentially also extracting some core Quintessence from it, and then having him touch the sand and redoing the examination, it would be valuable but quite painful, which would also make it unethical to put a prisoner though."
Cita said and frowned.

He nodded, "The ritual in the book should be safe; the book is 'The Creation of a Mage's Child' - pertaining to creating what's essentially a clone of a Mage, complete with a new Avatar thanks to the summoning of said Psychopomp. It's not a particularly good way to get a compatible apprentice, though, since the Mage's Child dies with the original..."

"I have heard about this ritual...most interesting, and yes that should be safe...hopefully."
Cita said and nodded.

He pondered, "I suppose it could be possible that the Avatars somehow decided that they did not learn and grow well enough when the bond was perfect with the Psychopomps' help, and so they dismissed their service, as it were, and merged with less perfectly matched hosts, enabling greater potential for growth and learning."

"That is quite possible."
Cita said an she nodded.
"It is all speculation in any case."

He nodded, "She was badly injured in the capture of Wallace Jace, though; not sure if she's back in her office yet..."

"Ah I did not know that I am sorry to hear it. I will have to inquire about her condition before asking for her help then."
Cita said and nodded.
"And if she can not we have to find someone else that can help Miss Florentine."

[Cabal Meeting, 10 AM, Wednesday September 30th]

Tane wrote:Well, that's the part of investigation i need to conduct in any case.

Colin frowned, "Well... if your research does lead to concrete methods that have a better than even chance of success... I'll see if i can find you a volunteer. But you are not to go fishing for the desperate and the condemned."

Tane wrote:Not all advances take so long, and even though you don't get an avatar cleansed, with a mitigation of the symptoms and maybe an start in the process, with the promise of advancing, there's probably a chance. If we can get historical data and testimonies that can be proobed to add them to this proof maybe it can be done.
In any case, don't underestimate the posibilities. Master Telar cured Vampire poisoning in a moment without much investigation, using the principles of regular sleeper medicine. I don't know if this has been done before, but she did it in this very Chantry. So have faith, my friend.

He frowned, "The problem is that there is very little historical data and testimonies to go around. And vampiric poisoning is completely different from Falling; one kills the Avatar, the other tears it into tiny bits, wrings the pieces and puts them back together in the wrong order. The two simply do not compare."

Tane wrote:It's a shame i don't know of any other things with avatars but humans. I don't know how you would test something like this.

He nodded, "That does pose an obvious complication... but in summary, you need consent given, and not acceptance under duress."

Tane wrote:I guess everything's invented.

He smiled wryly, "Not everything, but most forms of government have been tried, with varying degrees of success and durability... The Traditions have endured in war for centuries, the structure has stood the test of time."

Tane wrote:Tsk! I will give her a good beautyful gift and let him he pleased with that.

He frowned, "That would be one hell of a potent gift - in comparison, I was found guilty of being disrespectful to a certain Quaesitor, and I got off with the most trivial of punishments; a formal apology and three drams of Tass of a... usable quality. So no corrupted Quintessence allowed. Master Dupuis is a venerable war leader; he will not be satisfied with a pretty trinket - however, a magical talisman might be accepted. Be very careful with what manner of gift you try to offer."

Tane wrote:It would depend on what is understood as fallen. Maybe it can be pledged the Avatar si fallen and not the person, so she can try and make it come back.

He shook his head, "If that were the case, Widderslainte would not be summarily hunted down and... that."

Anja wrote:"I doubt she will be forced to live but if she make the choice to before....that then she will need care and I fear the Adeptus will not be able to sit by and not help her in any way he can since he feels guilty about her capture."
Bruce said and frowned.

S7trif3 wrote:"No, not horrible," he said, frowning. "I agree the Euthanatos would best understand the sentiment there but I do also."

Anja wrote:"Yes I guess they would, I just don't want a Chantrymate to end up having to see someone he care for slowly waste away and die."
Bruce said and sigh.

He nodded, frowning, "If that turns out to be the fate for her, he won't be left to care for her alone."

Anja wrote:The Artificer considered for a moment then he frowned again and nodded.
"Since the Technocracy use it you are right I would want a clear head if I am ever captured, I will talk with Richard about it."

He nodded, "Just don't make a habit of it... oh, and be ready for the equivalent of a good scolding or a cold shoulder from your Avatar when the 24 hours are up. Mine was rightly furious."

Anja wrote:"I am sure you will be able to have some good arguments to counter hers with, I also saw this program on Discovery, I usually have it on in the background while doing some of the more tedious work, anyway there are allot of anti vaccxers who are scared of needles themselves as several of them have been shown to have no problem with oral vaccines when said vaccines have more of the substances they worry about and are more dangerous than the ones you inject but buying into a new age whoo hoo conspiracy theory has less social stigma than admitting to fear, this probably do not apply to Miss Rozzo after all she slice herself open for her magic all the time, but if you get nowhere you can always challenge her on it see if you can shake her foundation a bit."
Bruce suggested and grunted.

S7trif3 wrote:"That would be a good rebuttal, and it's probably true. Yet here we have a clear case where it would work in favor of a person who say, had paradox or other issues that could not be solved by our magick. Plus, discontinuing use of them wholesale without supplanting them with something else would mean many people exposed to those maladies again."

Anja wrote:"Plus the less sick someone is the easier they are to heal, I had whopping cough as a kid, it sucked big time but since I was vaccinated I got it allot milder than someone who had not been vaccinated, if someone had tried to heal me then it would be easier than with the full version of the illness."
Bruce said then he sigh.
"And beside old Paradigms are still floating around, there are disease spirits out there and they are kept at bay with medicine."

He nodded, "Explaining vaccines as easy-to-use wards against specific diseases, without the need for freshening up the wards more than perhaps once or twice in an average lifespan is the easy part. The hard part might well be to convince them that they are one Union invention that greatly improves everyone's lives, Sleeper or Awakened alike."

Jeremy wrote:"Fine. That means if Mr. Wainwright wins we buy each other a drink. If its a stalemate you buy me a drink." Serge said detailing the condition of the game.

Anja wrote:"So in what scenario do you buy me a drink kid?"
Bruce said and he raised an eyebrow.

Jeremy wrote:"If Mr. Wainwright wins, just like I said." Serge said with a sly grin, although a little saddened that Bruce saw through the trick. "But...I guess also if both of the predictions are wrong? Or you could come up with a wild side prediction of your own."

Anja wrote:"Nah I do think Colin will win but I think perhaps it will be less clear cut than we might hope."
Bruce said and frowned.

Jeremy wrote:"Then you'll get a beer if Mr. Wainwright wins but not as easily and decisively as we'd have hoped." Serge said with a nod.

He grinned, "Strictly speaking, Mr. Yager, if Bruce buys you a beer on a draw, that means you buy him a beer on any non-draw conclusion, regardless of who wins."

Jeremy wrote:"As long as you can see the arguments coming there should be no problem." Serge said with a nod, looking more assured of Colin's victory now.

Anja wrote:"Anyone can see the arguments coming Serge, bla bla pineal glands, bla bla autism, bla bla hamster braids and evil overlords and bullshit, the question is if she will be able to sway any mages with the well the Technocracy made it argument."
Bruce grumbled.

Jeremy wrote:"Mr. Wainwright can do it. That Technocracy one is gonna be hard one to counter though. Wonder if they can be convinced with the 'we can use both their technology and our own magick for maximum protection' argument. Just in case their worried that using vaccines will diminish the use of magick in the world." Serge said.

Anja wrote:"It is not so much that they fear that with vaccines there will be less healing magick in the world an so less magick and more that they fea that the vaccines themselves might harm magickal abilities, some of the conservatives in vaccines are the same substances that will eventually harden the pineal gland, however there are far more of these substances in toothpaste and processed food than in vaccines so it is a stupid area to focus on, it would be like if someone saw that oh shit there is allot of garbage in the ocean and we need to do something about that, but instead of focusing on big companies and things that actually matter some idiot decided to start a campaign to ban straws or something, even if that is a tiny, itsty bitsy basically irrelevant part of the problem."
Bruce grumbled.

Jeremy wrote:"Guess just speculating about what the Deacons fears isn't the best. There all different people with different ideologies." Serge said with a sigh. "And I'm sure there's a bunch of proof that mundane vaccines don't screw with magickal ability."

He nodded, "And, of course, there's the bloody Wakefield article which will probably be brought up. That one, at least, will be easily disproved, what with the several hundred studies calling Wakefield out on his seven kinds of shit..."

Anja wrote:"He did indeed but as we where told by the Quesitor lady that came for the prisoners, for Wallace Jace considering how dangerous he s they already has the Main Sentencing Hall ready for him, right now I suspect the serum will not do much for him for now he he very, very, very dead."
Bruce said with a slight grin.
"And in his case he deserve it."

He frowned, "I am not particularly inclined to say anyone deserves it... but yes, he is one of the rare exceptions to my stance."

Jeremy wrote:"Ugh, that feels ham-fisted though. But yeah, it'd probably is for the best. Kids probably won't understand parallelism." Serge said, trying to think of a way to introduce vaccines into a world without it sounding stupid. "I'm guessing Dr. Unicorn will have to pay her a visit."

Anja wrote:Bruce raised an eyebrow to that.
"Dr Unicorn? Now that sounds somewhat terrifying after seeing Cabin in the Woods."

Jeremy wrote:"You know I was just thinking about that movie a couple days ago." Serge said with a smile. "But no, Dr. Unicorn won't gore you to death. Blast you with a ray gun is more likely. She's from a more sci-fi world."

Anja wrote:"I have gone to the Sons of Ether clinic on Horizon once so I am okey with doctors with ray guns."
Bruce joked.
"None of them where unicorns though."

Jeremy wrote:"One day I'll see Horizon. And I will love every second of it." Serge said with a smile. "And who knows. One of them might've been a were-unicorn."

He smiled, "It won't be ham-fisted if you make a little effort in your writing - and I'm sure you can get some help with editing and proofreading. As for an Etherite were-unicorn doctor - depending on how literal you are, I know of one..."

Anja wrote:"You got this out of the asshole at the villa Node?"
Bruce asked.
"Damn that feels like a long time ago and it have not even been a full week, only six days."
The other Orphan said and he shook his head.

Jeremy wrote:"I hate that thing so much." Serge said giving an evil look at Bruce's pockets where the bullet was stored. "Makes me feel boring."

Anja wrote:"Then make sure you are never captured by the Union for you will likely be placed in cuffs of the material."
The Orphan warned.
"Or be put on the magick dampening serum."

Jeremy wrote:"Don't need to tell me twice. That's some scary shit right there." Serge said with a sigh.

Anja wrote:"Indeed so."
Bruce agreed and nodded.

He grimaced, "Strictly speaking, I fished them out of the kitchen sink - digging the bullets out before healing didn't help the Nephandus' efforts in the slightest, rest his soul. Gunshot wounds going septic is a really bad way for anyone to go, friend or foe... Take it from me, Primium handcuffs or a day on the bloody serum is not even on my top ten list of scary shit. Certainly on the list of things to be avoided, but not so scary."

S7trif3 wrote:"Sometimes, when you hold an object you can in fact sense properties of it...if they are very strong, the resonance of it or in this case the absolute lack of it, can indeed feel wrong even if you just step in the room."

Jeremy wrote:"Figured. Felt the exact opposite when I hold the unicorn crayons." Serge said with a nod.

He smiled wryly, "You're going to love a spirit friend of mine; he's a chronicler, a carver of histories... I've got a few epitaphs in my workshop even now, snippets of lost lives - they'll be put on display here soon as I'm done with them all. There's a melancholy to the touch, and a sense of duty and honour as well..."

S7trif3 wrote:"Time has indeed been funny, most of my rest during the battles were in time bubbles...I had some very strange experiences in nonlinear time, though not like Colin's time shenanigans."

He smiled wryly, "I'm tempted to say that's all in your head, Amicus, but we both know it was a little more than that... But yes, time has been somewhat... staccato for us."

[Investigating Avatar Restoration, Cita's apartment]

Tane wrote:Well, sorry then.m I'm just happy to see everyone alright. He said smiling brightly.

He nodded, "Hum... not everyone is as physically affectionate, so you might want to be a little more cautious."

Tane wrote:I know. But! Maybe they can be reconstructed or at least the part that commands the corruptive thought and intentions. The influence of Essence and host psycology, and other factors need to be taken to account, and i hope some of us can clarify a little on that regard.

He frowned, "It won't be possible to simply revert the state of the Avatar wholesale, I think - the Caul takes a quite unpleasant eternity to do its foul deed, and from what I've understood of Miss Florentine, it was no less grueling to undo the damage... unwring one piece at a time..."

Tane wrote:What does it do and where has it come from? Tane asked before touching it.

He smiled, "A gift from the future; my daughter Anna visited the Chantry with a precious gift of sands from her own Avatar - the physical residue of her slowly and meticulously grinding her glass dragon back to the light. It will take time, but she can do it - as for what it does, I do believe this applies to most people, Awakened or not - the sand provokes the most profound memories, for most people, those are happy ones. For the Fallen... well, there are few things as profound as willingly hopping into an oversized set of genitalia and be shredded and put together wrong afterwards..."

Tane wrote:No, just that of Master Nassa's migrant avatar and, Henrietta asked me for some help, but i think it's rather personal and i wanted to ask Master Telar more privatelly. It's a good news, though.

He nodded, "Very well, if it's a private question..."

Tane wrote:I'd say a shard is a baby avatar, like a splinter. I'd say that's the reason he can't reincarnate and that's because it is a shard That should have migrated. Maybe it's in an adult stage, but i wonder how much it can develop without it's proper vessel.

He arched an eyebrow, "According to Master Nassa, the lady has been fully grown for a long time, it just never wanted to part ways with his mighty river... and he did imply that his growth may be impeded by his being a full reincarnation of all his past lives. Shards are completely different, and can... gather to become whole again in a completely different manner. Take my word for it, that's a completely different complication."

S7trif3 wrote:'You are quite welcome to try to study it with me, amicus maybe we would make better headway at it. It's more advanced than I can seem to handle, I'm missing something, it's like taking a course at a higher level than you were prepared to take...and then muddling though."

He nodded, then grimaced at some of the sentences in the book, gently closing it and handing it back, "If you recall, I was only able to see spirits very recently, and I had no training prior to that. I'm still in the Spirits 101 class, while this book looks more like the 103 syllabus."

S7trif3 wrote:He winced a bit at that. "I've heard back in the day they were more common."

Anja wrote:"They where but such effects still happen rather regularly."
Cita said and nodded.

He pondered, "Perhaps they were not more common, but there were more blatantly obvious supernatural marks, like flames changing colour and milk turning sour, whereas now it's more commonly a little less obvious - such as a lack of an indoors voice."

Anja wrote:"Feel free to come along with me I have chartered a cabin at a ship to Horizon Tuesday morning, I have patients to see."
Cita said then she frowned.
"I am sure the girl will appreciate it, at least in some way she must be scared out of her wits."

S7trif3 wrote:He frowned. "I believe she deserves somoene there but I'm not sure if I can spare the time or not to go myself. Let me check my schedule and with the Chief." He made a note in his book.

He nodded, "I'm compelled to go - she needs one face in the crowd, at least; one who neither hates her nor feigns pity... Besides, I need to make myself a familiar face at the cells, anyway."

Anja wrote:"I would not want the girl scared and yes I will not touch her Avatar and would stop if she asked me to, but we can wait until she is comfortable."
Cita said and she smiled slightly.

He nodded, "She will come, eventually, but it's going to take a few days. In the meantime, I will ask Master Steelhaven to let you get a look at the dragon scale from the future."

Anja wrote:"I am not sure doing such a test on a fifteen year old kid would be...a good idea, as it would involve a detailed examination of his Avatar, potentially also extracting some core Quintessence from it, and then having him touch the sand and redoing the examination, it would be valuable but quite painful, which would also make it unethical to put a prisoner though."
Cita said and frowned.

S7trif3 wrote:"He has suffered quite a bit, he needs time to adjust to things and recover," he said protectively.

Anja wrote:"No one will do anything against your brother when it comes to this without your Mentor's approval and your brother's consent, a consent he is probably to young to give."
Cita assured you.

Tane wrote:If witterslaints count, then we have a couple that we can ask for. If not, we can exchange the use of the sand and meassurements for some privileges.

He nodded, "As I said, he volunteered, but I do not mean to hold him to that. And simply asking for widderslaintes to test things on is not going to be so simple or ethical. I know of a few individuals we can ask to volunteer, but none of those are awaiting trial or sentencing right now."

Anja wrote:"I have heard about this ritual...most interesting, and yes that should be safe...hopefully."
Cita said and nodded.

S7trif3 wrote:He frowned. "Pardon?"

He smiled thinly, "I should have brought the book, except the pages are old and delicate... when I gave Lady Dalisse an unusually nice hardcover edition of her favourite book, she offered me any one pick off her own shelves. I let magic decide for me; pick the one book which would be most useful in the future, rather than the one with the highest cash value... turned out to be a primary copy of the original, with appendices that may not be found so easily elsewhere. I confirmed its authenticity with Lady Crexia, in fact; the book is literally priceless... The reason the Creation of the Mage's Child is not used much, if at all, is that the child, essentially a clone of the caster, is bound to the original's life force, meaning that when the original dies, so does the copy. It had its uses, of course, as one could be assured total loyalty, but it seems it fell into disfavour as it was too likely to cause the end of magical lineages... The summoning of the Psychopomp, though, while integral to the success of Creation of the Mage's Child, does not appear to be dependent on the larger working. Rather like how you need some means of binding a book to publish a novel, but you can bind books without needing to write novels to put in them."

S7trif3 wrote:"Raw power is one facet but not the only one...this reminds me of a conversation I had with one of the Hedge wizards that is quite powerful, she may be awakening soon and she was upset that she would lose her power so we discussed what might be gained. What if it is not so dissimilar?"

Anja wrote:Cita was silent for a moment then she looked at you and nodded.
"You may be right Mr Roth Hicks I guess it depend on how you look at it, in either case it is speculation, for none of us knows the answer.

He pondered, "Well, I suppose simply asking a Psychopomp would be the most effective way to get answers..."

Tane wrote:Psychopomps. I need more insight. You said they actually bonded avatars to humans... that means they could lend a hand on the avatar restoration, too. Maybe forge a method together.

He frowned, "As far as I can tell, Psychopomps make the bond between a Mage and their Avatar seamless, perfect - I fear trying to use them to alter Avatars would meet with failure, most likely a widderslainte so in sync with their Avatar that their urges would be indistinguishable from one another... a far trickier problem than , well, the standard of the day."

Anja wrote:"That is quite possible."
Cita said an she nodded.
"It is all speculation in any case."

S7trif3 wrote:"We have to speculate in order to figure out how to pursue the truth, at least a bit."

Anja wrote:"This is true."
The spirit healer agreed.
"We have little else to go on in this."

He nodded, "Hypothesis, test, examine results, revise hypothesis... it's rather odd how the scientific method still can apply to a more mystically inclined Mage..."

Tane wrote:I know, i know, that's why i said so. We have to be very attentive to her and her needs after this is done. In any case, i'm even more affraid for her mentor: i'm really more bent to belive that she'll damage herself to overextent her workings, just like Beatrice wanted to do, to prove herself the little god was there still. Even so, i know i can help with that, but i've seen the face of her mentor, and i'm affraid desperation and jealousy in the face of Trauma can get pretty toxic. I don't know the man, and i hope i'm mistaken... but we should be watchful.

He frowned, "I don't think you have much to worry about Master Nassa for in that respect... we'll still need to help him keep a level head and a proper focus in the coming months, but yes, we'll likely need to help him keep watch over Miss Florentine for some time, to make sure she doesn't do something reckless."

Anja wrote:"Ah I did not know that I am sorry to hear it. I will have to inquire about her condition before asking for her help then."
Cita said and nodded.
"And if she can not we have to find someone else that can help Miss Florentine."

He nodded, "Her apprentice, Serge Yager, has learned some quite sophisticated people skills, as it were. I do believe he would be an excellent substitute for Doctor Boudavich, and he is a resident of this Chantry."

((OOC: Damnable Papa Nurgle... Schnoz is more clogged than ever, and fever is up. ))

[Adley, Colin, Tane and Serge] (Cabal meeting 10 in the morning Wednesday 30/9 2015)

Well, that's the part of investigation i need to conduct in any case.

"As Colin say then you need to find someone who are in a position to consent and not because they are in such a desperate situation they will agree to just about anything."
Bruce said and grunted.

Not all advances take so long, and even though you don't get an avatar cleansed, with a mitigation of the symptoms and maybe an start in the process, with the promise of advancing, there's probably a chance. If we can get historical data and testimonies that can be proobed to add them to this proof maybe it can be done.
In any case, don't underestimate the posibilities. Master Telar cured Vampire poisoning in a moment without much investigation, using the principles of regular sleeper medicine. I don't know if this has been done before, but she did it in this very Chantry. So have faith, my friend.

"The problem is getting to the point where you show any advance on cleansing an Avatar in the little bit of time that is available, that is seldom a quick thing and clearing vampire posion from someone's Avatar is not the same thing. You are arguing that someone sent to dialysis to get posion out of their blood are the same as the doctors being able to cure someone that have been turned inside out, the two have nothing to do with one another. Now as for historical data there is none that support your ideas that is why everyone say cleansing a Fallen Avatar is impossible."
Bruce said sourly.

It's a shame i don't know of any other things with avatars but humans. I don't know how you would test something like this.

"That is indeed the problem, you do not have access to allot of test subjects."
The Orphan agreed.

It would depend on what is understood as fallen. Maybe it can be pledged the Avatar si fallen and not the person, so she can try and make it come back.

"Someone with a Fallen Avatar are understood as Fallen, a few others who are corrupted in other ways have been accused of being so."
Bruce said.
"But no you can be the sweetest person in the world if your Avatar is corrupted Gilgul is the only possible sentence with a few exceptions, like being a widderslainte with a powerful Mentor."

"Then you'll get a beer if Mr. Wainwright wins but not as easily and decisively as we'd have hoped." Serge said with a nod.

Bruce grinned a little at that.
"Sounds good Mr Yager."

"Guess just speculating about what the Deacons fears isn't the best. There all different people with different ideologies." Serge said with a sigh. "And I'm sure there's a bunch of proof that mundane vaccines don't screw with magickal ability."

"There are proof yes but if that proof do not convince die heard New Agers why would it convince a group of old mages?"
Bruce said and sigh.

"One day I'll see Horizon. And I will love every second of it." Serge said with a smile. "And who knows. One of them might've been a wereunicorn."

"Well there are both unicorns and dragons on Horizon so there is a possibility of that."
Bruce said and grinned.

He shook his head, "If that were the case, Widderslainte would not be summarily hunted down and... that."

"Yeah I mean try tied to....with Beatrice I mean, and her mind is not corrupted, perhaps one day it will e but right now she is a kind person who harm no one."
Bruce said and nodded.

He nodded, frowning, "If that turns out to be the fate for her, he won't be left to care for her alone."

"Yeah I guess we will all pitch in."
Bruce said and nodded.
"But it will not be easy to give her any kind of life after....that..."

He nodded, "Just don't make a habit of it... oh, and be ready for the equivalent of a good scolding or a cold shoulder from your Avatar when the 24 hours are up. Mine was rightly furious."

"I will try not to like it so much I do it every day."
Bruce commented wryly.
"Ah no would not want that my Avatar already comes pre grumped I do not need to add to that."

He nodded, "Explaining vaccines as easy-to-use wards against specific diseases, without the need for freshening up the wards more than perhaps once or twice in an average lifespan is the easy part. The hard part might well be to convince them that they are one Union invention that greatly improves everyone's lives, Sleeper or Awakened alike."

"Yeah I imagine that will be the problem, naturally magi will be distrustful of anything the Union have created."
The Orphan agreed.

He grinned, "Strictly speaking, Mr. Yager, if Bruce buys you a beer on a draw, that means you buy him a beer on any non-draw conclusion, regardless of who wins."

Bruce grinned at that.

He nodded, "And, of course, there's the bloody Wakefield article which will probably be brought up. That one, at least, will be easily disproved, what with the several hundred studies calling Wakefield out on his seven kinds of shit..."

"Wakefield is an idiot!"
Bruce grumbled.
"But yes his idea will probably be brought up under the debate, let us hope they can not convince the Deacon Council, those arguments have convinced allot of people."

He frowned, "I am not particularly inclined to say anyone deserves it... but yes, he is one of the rare exceptions to my stance."

Bruce grumbled at that and nodded.

He grimaced, "Strictly speaking, I fished them out of the kitchen sink - digging the bullets out before healing didn't help the Nephandus' efforts in the slightest, rest his soul. Gunshot wounds going septic is a really bad way for anyone to go, friend or foe... Take it from me, Primium handcuffs or a day on the bloody serum is not even on my top ten list of scary shit. Certainly on the list of things to be avoided, but not so scary."

"Ah no going down from sepsis is not on my to do list either."
Bruce said and frowned.
"I hear it is not a comfortable death, you did that Nephandus a favor by ending his suffering Colin."
He added.

"Yup. That puts Bruce's odd of getting a beer quite high. Any other outcome besides a stalemate like being interrupted by an attack or a sudden dance-off will yield a beer for our wonderful artificer." Serge said grinning as well, wondering if now was a good time to tell the two that he didn't actually drink alcohol.

"Well I do like beer."
Bruce said and grinned.
"I like my odds here."

[Investigating Avatar Restoration, Cita's Apartment]

Tane nodded and did as told, bringing the scones.

You found several blue and white plates in Cita's cupboard.

Well, sorry then.m I'm just happy to see everyone alright. He said smiling brightly.

"That is okey Tane, it is just as Mr Wainwright says, some are less physical in how we show affection."
Cita said with a slight smile.

I know. But! Maybe they can be reconstructed or at least the part that commands the corruptive thought and intentions. The influence of Essence and host psycology, and other factors need to be taken to account, and i hope some of us can clarify a little on that regard.

"I doubt it will be any easier to cleanse the part of the Avatar that interact with the Host than any other part Tane i there is even one part that do that."
The spirit healer said and she shook her head.

Psychopomps. I need more insight. You said they actually bonded avatars to humans... that means they could lend a hand on the avatar restoration, too. Maybe forge a method together.

"They might know more than us at least, but I am not sure we have the understanding to communicate with them."
The spirit healer said and frowned.

No, just that of Master Nassa's migrant avatar and, Henrietta asked me for some help, but i think it's rather personal and i wanted to ask Master Telar more privatelly. It's a good news, though.

"We can discuss it after the meeting if you wish Tane."
Cita offered.

I'd say a shard is a baby avatar, like a splinter. I'd say that's the reason he can't reincarnate and that's because it is a shard That should have migrated. Maybe it's in an adult stage, but i wonder how much it can develop without it's proper vessel.

"It might be a baby Avatar Tane, that is one of the theories about what Avatar Companions are, it is a fully fledged Avatar though and not just a shard. The reason why they cause complete reincarnations in their hosts is that the Companion do not go through the Well of Souls and wash of the former life as Avatars bonded to hosts do, so the Companion leave acsess to everything for the new host. If you want to see a shard though you are welcome to examine my Avatar, there have been a shard stuck in him for...quite some time."
Cita said sadly.

I know, i know, that's why i said so. We have to be very attentive to her and her needs after this is done. In any case, i'm even more affraid for her mentor: i'm really more bent to belive that she'll damage herself to overextent her workings, just like Beatrice wanted to do, to prove herself the little god was there still. Even so, i know i can help with that, but i've seen the face of her mentor, and i'm affraid desperation and jealousy in the face of Trauma can get pretty toxic. I don't know the man, and i hope i'm mistaken... but we should be watchful.

Cita's face took on a very stern look as she regarded Tane.
"This have to stop. Mr Gregario have done nothing but good for Miss Florentine, he lives or his apprentices, there is no indication, none that he would fly into some jealous rage and harm the woman he have deicated his life to protecting. Mr Gregario have gone though a hell you or me can not even imagine Tane, and insead of laying down to die like most in his situation would he rose back to his feet and serve the Traditions as a courier while helping others who have been hurt and damaged, he is braver and more noble than anyone here."
She said firmly.
"What he is however are fragile and if he hears you suspect him of harming his own student it will hurt him deeply, so stop it there are no reaso for your accusations!"

If witterslaints count, then we have a couple that we can ask for. If not, we can exchange the use of the sand and meassurements for some privileges.

"Beatrice is still to wounded for such and ordeal and Kyle is far to young."
Cita said and shook her head.

He frowned, "It won't be possible to simply revert the state of the Avatar wholesale, I think - the Caul takes a quite unpleasant eternity to do its foul deed, and from what I've understood of Miss Florentine, it was no less grueling to undo the damage... unwring one piece at a time..."

"Indeed I doubt there will be any shortcuts to this."
Cita said.

He pondered, "Perhaps they were not more common, but there were more blatantly obvious supernatural marks, like flames changing colour and milk turning sour, whereas now it's more commonly a little less obvious - such as a lack of an indoors voice."

"Turning milk sour is still a pretty common one."
Cita said and smiled a little.
"But yes the more extreme manifestations are more rare now."

He nodded, "I'm compelled to go - she needs one face in the crowd, at least; one who neither hates her nor feigns pity... Besides, I need to make myself a familiar face at the cells, anyway."

"Yeah there are allot of scared people in those cells."
Cita said darkly.
"The halls of Horizon will be full of screams before this is all done."

He nodded, "She will come, eventually, but it's going to take a few days. In the meantime, I will ask Master Steelhaven to let you get a look at the dragon scale from the future."

Cita's face light up at the mention of the scale.
"The dragon scale...the dragon scale now this might be what we need to give Miss Clearwater a chance...ok Mr Wainwright you will not like this suggjestion but is there any chance you would consent to me taking a scale from Anna's Avatar as it is now? I am not going to lie that will cause her quite a bit of pain, but if I can present two scales, one corrupted and one not, then I can prove that one corrupted Avatar clean itself in the future, and perhaps be able to use that to argue for letting Mr Karyak try to help one of the prisoners cleanse herself, I probably will just be able to talk them into sparing one of them, but with such a scale there is a tiny chance I can save Miss Clearwater."
The spirit healer asked eagerly.

He smiled thinly, "I should have brought the book, except the pages are old and delicate... when I gave Lady Dalisse an unusually nice hardcover edition of her favourite book, she offered me any one pick off her own shelves. I let magic decide for me; pick the one book which would be most useful in the future, rather than the one with the highest cash value... turned out to be a primary copy of the original, with appendices that may not be found so easily elsewhere. I confirmed its authenticity with Lady Crexia, in fact; the book is literally priceless... The reason the Creation of the Mage's Child is not used much, if at all, is that the child, essentially a clone of the caster, is bound to the original's life force, meaning that when the original dies, so does the copy. It had its uses, of course, as one could be assured total loyalty, but it seems it fell into disfavour as it was too likely to cause the end of magical lineages... The summoning of the Psychopomp, though, while integral to the success of Creation of the Mage's Child, does not appear to be dependent on the larger working. Rather like how you need some means of binding a book to publish a novel, but you can bind books without needing to write novels to put in them."

"That is a priceless book indeed. I have heard of the ritual, it was used by magi who wanted an apprentice but could not find a good candidate, it create a Gifted child to train...and if the child is Gifted that means it have an Avatar so a psycopomp is summoned to give the creation such a soul...it makes sense, I would very much like to see this book Mr Wainwright it seams this Lady Dalisse gave you a wonderful gift."
Cita said and smiled.

He pondered, "Well, I suppose simply asking a Psychopomp would be the most effective way to get answers..."

"If we can understand their answer."
The spirit healer said an she raised an eyebrow.

He frowned, "As far as I can tell, Psychopomps make the bond between a Mage and their Avatar seamless, perfect - I fear trying to use them to alter Avatars would meet with failure, most likely a widderslainte so in sync with their Avatar that their urges would be indistinguishable from one another... a far trickier problem than , well, the standard of the day."

"That is a possible complication yes, the again no one knows more about Avatars tan Psycopomps so they might be worth asking, again if we are at all able to understand them."
Cita commented.

He nodded, "Hypothesis, test, examine results, revise hypothesis... it's rather odd how the scientific method still can apply to a more mystically inclined Mage..."

"Indeed so Mr Wainwright."
Cita said.

He frowned, "I don't think you have much to worry about Master Nassa for in that respect... we'll still need to help him keep a level head and a proper focus in the coming months, but yes, we'll likely need to help him keep watch over Miss Florentine for some time, to make sure she doesn't do something reckless."

"It is not Master Nassa Mr Karyak is referring to Mr Wainwright, it is Mr Gregario, he have been expressing his suspicions that somehow the Mercere will fly into a rage and harm Miss Florentine out of jealousy, and generally expressed mistrust at the man and disregard for his needs and well being."
Cita sai a stern look in her eyes.
"I do not know where this dislike of a kind man who have done nothing but good comes from."

He nodded, "Her apprentice, Serge Yager, has learned some quite sophisticated people skills, as it were. I do believe he would be an excellent substitute for Doctor Boudavich, and he is a resident of this Chantry."

"I see, well if you would be so kin as to contact Mr Yager about this then and ask for his help?"
Cita requested.

[Cabal Meeting]

Not all advances take so long, and even though you don't get an avatar cleansed, with a mitigation of the symptoms and maybe an start in the process, with the promise of advancing, there's probably a chance. If we can get historical data and testimonies that can be proobed to add them to this proof maybe it can be done.  In any case, don't underestimate the posibilities. Master Telar cured Vampire poisoning in a moment without much investigation, using the principles of regular sleeper medicine. I don't know if this has been done before, but she did it in this very Chantry. So have faith, my friend.

He frowned, "The problem is that there is very little historical data and testimonies to go around. And vampiric poisoning is completely different from Falling; one kills the Avatar, the other tears it into tiny bits, wrings the pieces and puts them back together in the wrong order. The two simply do not compare."

"Removing the issue of the vampire blood was difficult, but it wasn't thought to be impossible, Mr Karyak. And it is not as if the young man will not have some side effects yet but thankfully he is alright. He was quite lucky to have such good healers help him. But there was precedent on how to go about the healing process, even if it were not assured to be one hundred percent effective and they're not the same, as Colin said. What we're talking about...such documentation, let us say, is going to be hard to come by." He frowned.

 It would depend on what is understood as fallen. Maybe it can be pledged the Avatar si fallen and not the person, so she can try and make it come back.

He shook his head, "If that were the case, Widderslainte would not be summarily hunted down and... that."

"What is considered Fallen is a magus with an inverted avatar, Mr Karyak, one that has been through a caul in some life. It not common that a person who is Fallen doesn't succumb to dark desires when their avatars have destructive urges and can no longer guide them upward, but...yes, it seems possible that at times this may be the case..."

 He smiled wryly, "You're going to love a spirit friend of mine; he's a chronicler, a carver of histories... I've got a few epitaphs in my workshop even now, snippets of lost lives - they'll be put on display here soon as I'm done with them all. There's a melancholy to the touch, and a sense of duty and honour as well..."

(Avatar Restoration Discussion Cita's Room.)
   

Well, sorry then.m I'm just happy to see everyone alright. He said smiling brightly.

He nodded, "Hum... not everyone is as physically affectionate, so you might want to be a little more cautious."

"It seems you're happiest to see Master Telar," he teased, putting a hand up. "But that's fine, I'm not a hugger generally speaking."
   

"It might be a baby Avatar Tane, that is one of the theories about what Avatar Companions are, it is a fully fledged Avatar though and not just a shard. The reason why they cause complete reincarnations in their hosts is that the Companion do not go through the Well of Souls and wash of the former life as Avatars bonded to hosts do, so the Companion leave acsess to everything for the new host. If you want to see a shard though you are welcome to examine my Avatar, there have been a shard stuck in him for...quite some time."
   Cita said sadly.

He rasied an eyebrow at Master Telar in surprise.

I know. But! Maybe they can be reconstructed or at least the part that commands the corruptive thought and intentions. The influence of Essence and host psycology, and other factors need to be taken to account, and i hope some of us can clarify a little on that regard.

He frowned, "It won't be possible to simply revert the state of the Avatar wholesale, I think - the Caul takes a quite unpleasant eternity to do its foul deed, and from what I've understood of Miss Florentine, it was no less grueling to undo the damage... unwring one piece at a time..."

"I have a theory of sorts, that the memories that the avatar maintains despite it's state of Fallen are important - it is something that still connects it to the Tellurian, which is what the process of the caul attempts to sever, after all. Such a state engenders them to use highly destructive magick subject to higher risk of paradox for that reason. So, if you navigate the spirit realm by associations, the same idea could be thought for navigating a soul, avatars are long chains of events in hosts, linked to one another, making associations that we are and are not aware of, depending on a variety of factors including the avatar itself. However, it is still challenging, as the avatar wants to become nothing and take the host with it...though it seems that they want this but 'later'...when they get done with all the things they want to do, those are the desires of the host usually, that too can be important because it unveils the ustable dichotomy that is present within them. They want to spend time with their families and when they're done, hit the undo button but if you talk with them, the sense that this is an uneasy feeling with them because it inherently goes against their interest."

 I know, i know, that's why i said so. We have to be very attentive to her and her needs after this is done. In any case, i'm even more affraid for her mentor: i'm really more bent to belive that she'll damage herself to overextent her workings, just like Beatrice wanted to do, to prove herself the little god was there still. Even so, i know i can help with that, but i've seen the face of her mentor, and i'm affraid desperation and jealousy in the face of Trauma can get pretty toxic. I don't know the man, and i hope i'm mistaken... but we should be watchful.

"Her original avatar was destroyed," he started to correct him, and then Cita laid into him and there was nothing more to add to that about Mr Gregario.
   

"If we can understand their answer."
   The spirit healer said an she raised an eyebrow.

"I happen to know someone who is in a House that is renown for such things...perhaps she can help us make sense of it if we cannot. But it would mean bringing in another person, which I am not entirely eager to do though I am not saying I mistrust her."

"Yeah there are allot of scared people in those cells." Cita said darkly. "The halls of Horizon will be full of screams before this is all done."

"Wait, what did you say? That's the second time I've heard that, there was the girl...who was not a girl, who helped bring the lost avatar through to the Well...she said the same thing to me. Exactly the same thing."
   

He smiled, "A gift from the future; my daughter Anna visited the Chantry with a precious gift of sands from her own Avatar - the physical residue of her slowly and meticulously grinding her glass dragon back to the light. It will take time, but she can do it - as for what it does, I do believe this applies to most people, Awakened or not - the sand provokes the most profound memories, for most people, those are happy ones. For the Fallen... well, there are few things as profound as willingly hopping into an oversized set of genitalia and be shredded and put together wrong afterwards..."

"So, for Fallen it reminds them of when their avatar was in the caul."

If witterslaints count, then we have a couple that we can ask for. If not, we can exchange the use of the sand and meassurements for some privileges.

"My si-...our cabalmate and brother are healing, Mr Karyak and I don't think are up for such. We should not give out something of Anna's with such a strong connection to her to just anyone though it would be a very strong arcane link. The strongest I could think of, really."
   

He nodded, "As I said, he volunteered, but I do not mean to hold him to that. And simply asking for widderslaintes to test things on is not going to be so simple or ethical. I know of a few individuals we can ask to volunteer, but none of those are awaiting trial or sentencing right now."

He nodded at the assurance.

He smiled thinly, "I should have brought the book, except the pages are old and delicate... when I gave Lady Dalisse an unusually nice hardcover edition of her favourite book, she offered me any one pick off her own shelves. I let magic decide for me; pick the one book which would be most useful in the future, rather than the one with the highest cash value... turned out to be a primary copy of the original, with appendices that may not be found so easily elsewhere. I confirmed its authenticity with Lady Crexia, in fact; the book is literally priceless... The reason the Creation of the Mage's Child is not used much, if at all, is that the child, essentially a clone of the caster, is bound to the original's life force, meaning that when the original dies, so does the copy. It had its uses, of course, as one could be assured total loyalty, but it seems it fell into disfavour as it was too likely to cause the end of magical lineages... The summoning of the Psychopomp, though, while integral to the success of Creation of the Mage's Child, does not appear to be dependent on the larger working. Rather like how you need some means of binding a book to publish a novel, but you can bind books without needing to write novels to put in them."

"Interesting."

He frowned, "As far as I can tell, Psychopomps make the bond between a Mage and their Avatar seamless, perfect - I fear trying to use them to alter Avatars would meet with failure, most likely a widderslainte so in sync with their Avatar that their urges would be indistinguishable from one another... a far trickier problem than , well, the standard of the day."

"That does seem it would pose even more problems."

He nodded, "Hypothesis, test, examine results, revise hypothesis... it's rather odd how the scientific method still can apply to a more mystically inclined Mage..."

"The Order was making use of such tests and proving grounds before the Technocracy existed. We like results that we can replicate using the same methods that we can share with other members. And in this way we learn more about our Reality and can make new postulate new ideas."

He nodded, then grimaced at some of the sentences in the book, gently closing it and handing it back, "If you recall, I was only able to see spirits very recently, and I had no training prior to that. I'm still in the Spirits 101 class, while this book looks more like the 103 syllabus."

He took it back. "Well, more like 104, perhaps...yes, how are you dealing with that by the way? Have you figured out how to change your vibration back so you only see the material plane?"
   

He nodded, "Her apprentice, Serge Yager, has learned some quite sophisticated people skills, as it were. I do believe he would be an excellent substitute for Doctor Boudavich, and he is a resident of this Chantry."

"I see, well if you would be so kin as to contact Mr Yager about this then and ask for his help?"
   Cita requested.

"Ms Florintine is not going to enjoy stranger's company. However, perhaps he can come with me, when I visit her so that everyone feels more comfortable, if he accepts."

[Adley, Colin, Tane and Serge] (Cabal meeting 10 in the morning Wednesday 30/9 2015)

"I really hope not...I've seen a lot of were-creatures lately. A shark, a spider, bears, a rat. There's werecats, and werewolves. I'm not sure what to think of a were-unicorn, Horizon unicorns are said to be formidable enough just as they are."

"Yeah Horizon's unicorns are nasty. I have not seen them but on the transport up there we got a pamplet tat warned us about them."
Bruce said.
"The dragons are usually friendly though and some of them are in captivity and one can pay to be taken on rides...not sure what I think about such beings being kept in captivity though, seams a bit like slavery to me."
The Orphan said and frowned.

(Avatar Restoration Discussion Cita's Room.)

He rasied an eyebrow at Master Telar in surprise.

"Well you know where I met Jeffry."
Cita said and that was all the explanation she gave, her eyes where focused on something far away and there where great grief in her voice, your Mentor had told you had had met Cita, well met her again as the first time they met they where enemies on different sides in the Asencion War, but when he met her again it was in a support group for those who ha lost apprentices. Your prou Mentor was a bit embarrassed to go to such a group but he did regardless and he had mentioned had Cita had lost a student as well in the worst possible way.

"I have a theory of sorts, that the memories that the avatar maintains despite it's state of Fallen are important - it is something that still connects it to the Tellurian, which is what the process of the caul attempts to sever, after all. Such a state engenders them to use highly destructive magick subject to higher risk of paradox for that reason. So, if you navigate the spirit realm by associations, the same idea could be thought for navigating a soul, avatars are long chains of events in hosts, linked to one another, making associations that we are and are not aware of, depending on a variety of factors including the avatar itself. However, it is still challenging, as the avatar wants to become nothing and take the host with it...though it seems that they want this but 'later'...when they get done with all the things they want to do, those are the desires of the host usually, that too can be important because it unveils the ustable dichotomy that is present within them. They want to spend time with their families and when they're done, hit the undo button but if you talk with them, the sense that this is an uneasy feeling with them because it inherently goes against their interest."

"That is an interesting concept, that there might be a disconnect between the desires of the individual Fallen's ego and the desires of his and her Avatar. There is one man captured and sent to Horizon from Chicago he have slipped into a deep Seeking and according to witnesses he did so after talking to you Mr Roth Hicks? Is that related to what you are saying here?"
The spirit healer asked and she raised an eyebrow.

"I happen to know someone who is in a House that is renown for such things...perhaps she can help us make sense of it if we cannot. But it would mean bringing in another person, which I am not entirely eager to do though I am not saying I mistrust her."

"We might have to seek out aid Mr Roth Hicks if we can not make sense of it ourselves."
Cita said.

"Wait, what did you say? That's the second time I've heard that, there was the girl...who was not a girl, who helped bring the lost avatar through to the Well...she said the same thing to me. Exactly the same thing."

The Virtual Adept gave you a surprised look.
"I said The halls of Horizon will be full of screams before this is all done, I am afraid I do not understand though Mr Roth Hicks, a girl that is not a girl?"
She asked looking confused.

"My si-...our cabalmate and brother are healing, Mr Karyak and I don't think are up for such. We should not give out something of Anna's with such a strong connection to her to just anyone though it would be a very strong arcane link. The strongest I could think of, really."

"Agreed there could be no stronger Arcane connection."
Cita said and frowned.
"So we will have to be careful with the sand for Anna's safety."

"That does seem it would pose even more problems."

"It would not be desirable no."

"Ms Florintine is not going to enjoy stranger's company. However, perhaps he can come with me, when I visit her so that everyone feels more comfortable, if he accepts."

"We are going to have to be gentle and understanding and make sure the girl is not scared, and introduce new individuals to her slowly and on her own premises."

[Adley, Colin, Tane and Serge] (Cabal meeting 10 in the morning Wednesday 30/9 2015)

Serge wanted to argue but knew it would be better to let it slide. They had done a lot of talking and he had already said his fair share of crazy stuff. "Yeah. We'll see what'll happen in a debate that hasn't even been accepted yet or issued yet."

Bruce just nodded at that.

"All my vaccines were given before I Awakened so I probably wouldn't be the best example." Serge said with a shrug. "We'd probably need more examples than just one. Everyone does their magick differently so they might argue that vaccines might affect everyone differently."

"Yeah well I have never met a mage who have claimed to have their abilities lessened by vaccines but I guess there could be some demonstration done by letting someone who what they can do before and after."
The Artificer said and nodded.

"I have to share Serge's enthusiasm here. I actually would not mind speaking with dragons either, at least if they are friendly. Monokeros on the other hand, well according to lore, had a three foot horn and was the fiercest, fastest of all beasts, unless you were a virgin maiden."

"Well then as none of us are virgin maidens I think we should leave the nice horses with spears growing out of their heads alone."
Bruce said and grinned.
"The dragons though, we should all go and see them one day."

(Avatar Restoration Discussion Cita's Room.)

"Pardon, I didn't realise..."

"You could not have known Mr Roth Hicks."
Cita said sadly.

"Yes, I did have a similar discussion with him. I am not sure what the outcome of such will be, and it was not intentional obviously, but that seems to be the outcome. The man was under duress of course, having been captured. I take it he has not awoken then?"

"No he have not, he have been in a Seeking ever since he was captured."
Cita said.
"It have been discussed if someone should try to force him out of it for his trial."

"Yes, perhaps so, we just need to be careful."

"Agreed."
The spirit healer said and nodded.

"Do you remember asking someone here to help guide that wayward avatar that was stuck hanging around back to the Well, and they brought with them...well, from what I now understand it may have been their avatar in some sort of external form. She said that to me, too. That the Halls of Horizon would be full of screams before this was done..." He frowned.

"Ah yes I know her Conny, yes she is an Avatar, she is not outside of her host, not really but she do manifest...hum...well I doubt she would have said something if it was nothing to it, she said that exact phrase?"
Cita asked.
"Perhaps I should contact her host and see if Conny would be willing to talk with us."

((OOC: Oog, Papa Nurgle's still being a bit of a bitch... -_- ))

[Cabal Meeting, 10 AM, Wednesday September 30th]

Anja wrote:"As Colin say then you need to find someone who are in a position to consent and not because they are in such a desperate situation they will agree to just about anything."
Bruce said and grunted.

Colin nodded, "As it happens, I know a couple of potential candidates I can ask - I'm not going to share their contact information all willy-nilly; they have their right to privacy."

Anja wrote:"The problem is getting to the point where you show any advance on cleansing an Avatar in the little bit of time that is available, that is seldom a quick thing and clearing vampire posion from someone's Avatar is not the same thing. You are arguing that someone sent to dialysis to get posion out of their blood are the same as the doctors being able to cure someone that have been turned inside out, the two have nothing to do with one another. Now as for historical data there is none that support your ideas that is why everyone say cleansing a Fallen Avatar is impossible."
Bruce said sourly.

S7trif3 wrote:"Removing the issue of the vampire blood was difficult, but it wasn't thought to be impossible, Mr Karyak. And it is not as if the young man will not have some side effects yet but thankfully he is alright. He was quite lucky to have such good healers help him. But there was precedent on how to go about the healing process, even if it were not assured to be one hundred percent effective and they're not the same, as Colin said. What we're talking about...such documentation, let us say, is going to be hard to come by." He frowned.

He nodded, "Part of the problem is that there is one known incident of past success, and that was buried..."

Anja wrote:"That is indeed the problem, you do not have access to allot of test subjects."
The Orphan agreed.

He pondered, "The Virtual Adepts might have a few options as far as simulations go, though - which is a good route to go without endangering others."

Anja wrote:"Someone with a Fallen Avatar are understood as Fallen, a few others who are corrupted in other ways have been accused of being so."
Bruce said.
"But no you can be the sweetest person in the world if your Avatar is corrupted Gilgul is the only possible sentence with a few exceptions, like being a widderslainte with a powerful Mentor."

Anja wrote:"Yeah I mean try tied to....with Beatrice I mean, and her mind is not corrupted, perhaps one day it will e but right now she is a kind person who harm no one."
Bruce said and nodded.

S7trif3 wrote:"What is considered Fallen is a magus with an inverted avatar, Mr Karyak, one that has been through a caul in some life. It not common that a person who is Fallen doesn't succumb to dark desires when their avatars have destructive urges and can no longer guide them upward, but...yes, it seems possible that at times this may be the case..."

He grimaced wryly, "Incidentally, entering a Caul is not illegal, being Fallen is, but with one spectacular exception, it does appear to be the invariable outcome of going there... but it also appears that the motivation for entering does greatly affect the degree of corruption, to the point of virtues lingering until the next incarnation..."

Anja wrote:"Yeah I guess we will all pitch in."
Bruce said and nodded.
"But it will not be easy to give her any kind of life after....that..."

He frowned, "That depends on her, as well... some are able to find the strength to carry on, some... well... let's hope, if it comes to that, that she'll be in the former category."

Anja wrote:Bruce grinned a little at that.
"Sounds good Mr Yager."

Jeremy wrote:"Yup. That puts Bruce's odd of getting a beer quite high. Any other outcome besides a stalemate like being interrupted by an attack or a sudden dance-off will yield a beer for our wonderful artificer." Serge said grinning as well, wondering if now was a good time to tell the two that he didn't actually drink alcohol.

Anja wrote:"Well I do like beer."
Bruce said and grinned.
"I like my odds here."

Jeremy wrote:"So do I. Everyone knows that the wild prediction always tend to happen. Just like Fred and George's quidditch prediction." Serge said confidently. "Of course I'd rather both of us win."

Anja wrote:"That is generally not how things happen in real life Serge, in stories the underdog always with or something remarkable happens because it makes for a better story, in real lie, unless magick is involved the coin will almost never end up on the side and what is statistically probable will happen."
Bruce said and sigh.
"But yes et us see what will happen."

Jeremy wrote:Serge wanted to argue but knew it would be better to let it slide. They had done a lot of talking and he had already said his fair share of crazy stuff. "Yeah. We'll see what'll happen in a debate that hasn't even been accepted yet or issued yet."

Anja wrote:Bruce just nodded at that.

He grinned and glanced over his shoulder at the bookshelves, loaded with Fantasy of every flavour, "Mr. Yager, I do believe you have read too much fiction... though, yes, it does appear that one in a million chances come up nine times out of ten. The problem, as the Ankh-Morpork City Watch discovered, was how to make sure the odds were truly a million to one..."

Anja wrote:"Yeah I imagine that will be the problem, naturally magi will be distrustful of anything the Union have created."
The Orphan agreed.

He shrugged, "Only to an extent. There are many conveniences even quite senior Magi have adopted, even if they're based on Union advances. Even Chief Morgan is quite fond of his coffee maker."

Anja wrote:"There are proof yes but if that proof do not convince die heard New Agers why would it convince a group of old mages?"
Bruce said and sigh.

Jeremy wrote:"Because we have magick on our side?" Serge said unconvincingly. "We could, I don't know, look into the future of vaccinated mages to see if they've had any problems?"

Anja wrote:"That we could or really it is enough to demonstrate our ability, I have always kept up to date with my vaccines with a few travel vaccines in addition and I work magick just fine and develop nicely and just had a Seeking."
The Artificer said and nodded.

Anja wrote:"All my vaccines were given before I Awakened so I probably wouldn't be the best example." Serge said with a shrug. "We'd probably need more examples than just one. Everyone does their magick differently so they might argue that vaccines might affect everyone differently."

Anja wrote:"Yeah well I have never met a mage who have claimed to have their abilities lessened by vaccines but I guess there could be some demonstration done by letting someone who what they can do before and after."
The Artificer said and nodded.

Jeremy wrote:"We'd need mages from all parts of the magickal spectrum. Both Technomancer's and Mystics." Serge said agreeing with Bruce.

He nodded, "I myself was amply vaccinated only months before I Awakened, courtesy of going to war in a foreign country with a lot of sand... it has hardly seemed to hamper my development. But, you're rather stretching the normal bounds of a debate right now."

Anja wrote:"Wakefield is an idiot!"
Bruce grumbled.
"But yes his idea will probably be brought up under the debate, let us hope they can not convince the Deacon Council, those arguments have convinced allot of people."

He frowned, "Wakefield is no idiot - the bastard knew precisely what he was doing in trying to malign one vaccine to give his own competing brand a better chance."

Jeremy wrote:"It'll be a challenge still. I like story-writing, but I'm terrible at it. Hate proofreading too so I'll probably get someone else to do that." Serge said with a sigh. "And why do you know so many people? You tell me how an Etherite can be part unicorn. What kind of freaky experiment did he do?"

Anja wrote:"Well there are both unicorns and dragons on Horizon so there is a possibility of that."
Bruce said and grinned.

S7trif3 wrote:"I really hope not...I've seen a lot of were-creatures lately. A shark, a spider, bears, a rat. There's werecats, and werewolves. I'm not sure what to think of a were-unicorn, Horizon unicorns are said to be formidable enough just as they are."

Anja wrote:"Yeah Horizon's unicorns are nasty. I have not seen them but on the transport up there we got a pamplet tat warned us about them."
Bruce said.
"The dragons are usually friendly though and some of them are in captivity and one can pay to be taken on rides...not sure what I think about such beings being kept in captivity though, seams a bit like slavery to me."
The Orphan said and frowned.

Jeremy wrote:"Ahhh, sounds like the place of my dreams expect this time those creatures could kill me." Serge said with a chuckle.

Anja wrote:"Yes well creatures can always be a danger, but let us stay away from the unicorns and then you can have a look at the dragons kid when you go to Horizon."
Bruce said and grinned a bit over the younger mage's enthusiasm.

S7trif3 wrote:"I have to share Serge's enthusiasm here. I actually would not mind speaking with dragons either, at least if they are friendly. Monokeros on the other hand, well according to lore, had a three foot horn and was the fiercest, fastest of all beasts, unless you were a virgin maiden."

Anja wrote:"Well then as none of us are virgin maidens I think we should leave the nice horses with spears growing out of their heads alone."
Bruce said and grinned.
"The dragons though, we should all go and see them one day."

Jeremy wrote:"Why stop at dragons. Aren't there a bunch of mythical creatures in Horizon? Let's meet them all!" Serge said with a smile.

He grinned, "The doctor I had in mind is more of a metaphorical magic unicorn... a dual Traditions physician, both Verbena and Etherite. Remarkably skilled. As for seeing the mythical creatures of Horizon... you don't want to meet them all. There's a beast from an island, a beast that eats Avatars. Not something you want to get too close to."

Anja wrote:"I will try not to like it so much I do it every day."
Bruce commented wryly.
"Ah no would not want that my Avatar already comes pre grumped I do not need to add to that."

He grinned, "That said, once is not harmful... three days in a row, that's the absolute limit. More than that, you'll get Primium buildup in the brain; you'll want to avoid that."

Anja wrote:"Ah no going down from sepsis is not on my to do list either."
Bruce said and frowned.
"I hear it is not a comfortable death, you did that Nephandus a favor by ending his suffering Colin."
He added.

Jeremy wrote:Serge shuddered a little and said, "Yeah, I'm sure your scary list has many unique things on it, considering the life you've led."

He frowned, "Probably not more unique things than most, but, well... tears in the rain and all that..."

Jeremy wrote:"I think you mentioned him before. When we were fighting Siege right?" Serge said remembering the fight so long ago. "Can't say I've heard of that kind of spirit yet. A chronicler..huh. I wonder if he'd be interested in fictional histories?"

S7trif3 wrote:"Hrm...I wonder...if perhaps he can help us out." He took a notebook out and made a note in it careful not to name the spirit's name, with a squiggle - question mark.

He pondered, "Yes, same one... not sure how he could help us much, though; he seems to be rather specific in purpose. As they are."

S7trif3 wrote:"Some of it was..." he shook his head. "And you were there..."

He nodded, "So I was... It was revealing, seeing those events. But someone needed to bring you back."

[Investigating Avatar Restoration, Cita's apartment]

Anja wrote:"I doubt it will be any easier to cleanse the part of the Avatar that interact with the Host than any other part Tane i there is even one part that do that."
The spirit healer said and she shook her head.

Anja wrote:"Indeed I doubt there will be any shortcuts to this."
Cita said.

S7trif3 wrote:"I have a theory of sorts, that the memories that the avatar maintains despite it's state of Fallen are important - it is something that still connects it to the Tellurian, which is what the process of the caul attempts to sever, after all. Such a state engenders them to use highly destructive magick subject to higher risk of paradox for that reason. So, if you navigate the spirit realm by associations, the same idea could be thought for navigating a soul, avatars are long chains of events in hosts, linked to one another, making associations that we are and are not aware of, depending on a variety of factors including the avatar itself. However, it is still challenging, as the avatar wants to become nothing and take the host with it...though it seems that they want this but 'later'...when they get done with all the things they want to do, those are the desires of the host usually, that too can be important because it unveils the ustable dichotomy that is present within them. They want to spend time with their families and when they're done, hit the undo button but if you talk with them, the sense that this is an uneasy feeling with them because it inherently goes against their interest."

Anja wrote:"That is an interesting concept, that there might be a disconnect between the desires of the individual Fallen's ego and the desires of his and her Avatar. There is one man captured and sent to Horizon from Chicago he have slipped into a deep Seeking and according to witnesses he did so after talking to you Mr Roth Hicks? Is that related to what you are saying here?"
The spirit healer asked and she raised an eyebrow.

S7trif3 wrote:"Yes, I did have a similar discussion with him. I am not sure what the outcome of such will be, and it was not intentional obviously, but that seems to be the outcome. The man was under duress of course, having been captured. I take it he has not awoken then?"

Anja wrote:"No he have not, he have been in a Seeking ever since he was captured."
Cita said.
"It have been discussed if someone should try to force him out of it for his trial."

S7trif3 wrote:"I don't think that's going to be a good idea, not for the person trying to wake them either...it would be better to see what occurs. Perhaps something will have changed?"

He frowned, "We should see if we can't get someone to keep an eye on his progress as he's in his Seeking... The chap was forced to take a long, hard look at himself when we caught him..."

Anja wrote:"They might know more than us at least, but I am not sure we have the understanding to communicate with them."
The spirit healer said and frowned.

Anja wrote:"If we can understand their answer."
The spirit healer said an she raised an eyebrow.

Anja wrote:"That is a possible complication yes, the again no one knows more about Avatars tan Psycopomps so they might be worth asking, again if we are at all able to understand them."
Cita commented.

S7trif3 wrote:"I happen to know someone who is in a House that is renown for such things...perhaps she can help us make sense of it if we cannot. But it would mean bringing in another person, which I am not entirely eager to do though I am not saying I mistrust her."

Anja wrote:"We might have to seek out aid Mr Roth Hicks if we can not make sense of it ourselves."
Cita said.

S7trif3 wrote:"Yes, perhaps so, we just need to be careful."

Anja wrote:"Agreed."
The spirit healer said and nodded.

He pondered, "If Teomim worked with them, it stands to reason that we will be able to find some way to communicate. I'm guessing the help you have in mind has a lot of scars, too, Adley?"

S7trif3 wrote:"That does seem it would pose even more problems."

Anja wrote:"It would not be desirable no."

He nodded, "So let us not, and say that we didn't, alright?"

Anja wrote:"It might be a baby Avatar Tane, that is one of the theories about what Avatar Companions are, it is a fully fledged Avatar though and not just a shard. The reason why they cause complete reincarnations in their hosts is that the Companion do not go through the Well of Souls and wash of the former life as Avatars bonded to hosts do, so the Companion leave acsess to everything for the new host. If you want to see a shard though you are welcome to examine my Avatar, there have been a shard stuck in him for...quite some time."
Cita said sadly.

S7trif3 wrote:He rasied an eyebrow at Master Telar in surprise.

Anja wrote:"Well you know where I met Jeffry."
Cita said and that was all the explanation she gave, her eyes where focused on something far away and there where great grief in her voice, your Mentor had told you had had met Cita, well met her again as the first time they met they where enemies on different sides in the Asencion War, but when he met her again it was in a support group for those who ha lost apprentices. Your prou Mentor was a bit embarrassed to go to such a group but he did regardless and he had mentioned had Cita had lost a student as well in the worst possible way.

S7trif3 wrote:"Pardon, I didn't realise..."

Anja wrote:"You could not have known Mr Roth Hicks."
Cita said sadly.

He calmly took a sip from his teacup, "Shards are indeed different from an intact Avatar - and in most cases, they can present an actual danger to a Mage. Enough so that, well... that's another reason a certain Italian resents me, just a little..."

Anja wrote:"It is not Master Nassa Mr Karyak is referring to Mr Wainwright, it is Mr Gregario, he have been expressing his suspicions that somehow the Mercere will fly into a rage and harm Miss Florentine out of jealousy, and generally expressed mistrust at the man and disregard for his needs and well being."
Cita sai a stern look in her eyes.
"I do not know where this dislike of a kind man who have done nothing but good comes from."

S7trif3 wrote:"Her original avatar was destroyed," he started to correct him, and then Cita laid into him and there was nothing more to add to that about Mr Gregario.

Anja wrote:Cita's face took on a very stern look as she regarded Tane.
"This have to stop. Mr Gregario have done nothing but good for Miss Florentine, he lives or his apprentices, there is no indication, none that he would fly into some jealous rage and harm the woman he have deicated his life to protecting. Mr Gregario have gone though a hell you or me can not even imagine Tane, and insead of laying down to die like most in his situation would he rose back to his feet and serve the Traditions as a courier while helping others who have been hurt and damaged, he is braver and more noble than anyone here."
She said firmly.
"What he is however are fragile and if he hears you suspect him of harming his own student it will hurt him deeply, so stop it there are no reaso for your accusations!"

His expression soured a little, "Ah, yes, I was thinking - perhaps inappropriately - of Mr. Gregario as more of a carer than a Mentor at this stage. My apologies... and yes, casting doubt on him like that is inappropriate. Add to that, I'm not sure if any... former Mage is even capable of mustering so much jealous rage, even."

Anja wrote:"Beatrice is still to wounded for such and ordeal and Kyle is far to young."
Cita said and shook her head.

S7trife wrote:"My si-...our cabalmate and brother are healing, Mr Karyak and I don't think are up for such. We should not give out something of Anna's with such a strong connection to her to just anyone though it would be a very strong arcane link. The strongest I could think of, really."

Anja wrote:"Agreed there could be no stronger Arcane connection."
Cita said and frowned.
"So we will have to be careful with the sand for Anna's safety."

He nodded, "I have passed a few samples to others for very specific examinations - individuals whose discretion I trust well enough to not lead to someone seeking out Anna. There will be no wholesale trading in that sand, owing to the dangers of it, including the strength of the arcane link."

Anja wrote:"Yeah there are allot of scared people in those cells."
Cita said darkly.
"The halls of Horizon will be full of screams before this is all done."

S7trif3 wrote:"Wait, what did you say? That's the second time I've heard that, there was the girl...who was not a girl, who helped bring the lost avatar through to the Well...she said the same thing to me. Exactly the same thing."

Anja wrote:The Virtual Adept gave you a surprised look.
"I said The halls of Horizon will be full of screams before this is all done, I am afraid I do not understand though Mr Roth Hicks, a girl that is not a girl?"
She asked looking confused.

S7trif3 wrote:"Do you remember asking someone here to help guide that wayward avatar that was stuck hanging around back to the Well, and they brought with them...well, from what I now understand it may have been their avatar in some sort of external form. She said that to me, too. That the Halls of Horizon would be full of screams before this was done..." He frowned.

Anja wrote:"Ah yes I know her Conny, yes she is an Avatar, she is not outside of her host, not really but she do manifest...hum...well I doubt she would have said something if it was nothing to it, she said that exact phrase?"
Cita asked.
"Perhaps I should contact her host and see if Conny would be willing to talk with us."

S7trif3 wrote:"I can't swear for it being exactly word for word, very nearly so...it stuck with me since it came a bit out of the blue. Before a lot of other things happened..." He frowned. "She was inscrutable then, but perhaps it could not hurt to ask."

He frowned, "The matching statements could, of course, be a coincidence... but I'm disinclined to believe in those. Fate has a funny way of making its presence known, even if we can quite forcibly change it."

Anja wrote:"So, for Fallen it reminds them of when their avatar was in the caul."

He nodded, "So it would seem."

Anja wrote:Cita's face light up at the mention of the scale.
"The dragon scale...the dragon scale now this might be what we need to give Miss Clearwater a chance...ok Mr Wainwright you will not like this suggjestion but is there any chance you would consent to me taking a scale from Anna's Avatar as it is now? I am not going to lie that will cause her quite a bit of pain, but if I can present two scales, one corrupted and one not, then I can prove that one corrupted Avatar clean itself in the future, and perhaps be able to use that to argue for letting Mr Karyak try to help one of the prisoners cleanse herself, I probably will just be able to talk them into sparing one of them, but with such a scale there is a tiny chance I can save Miss Clearwater."
The spirit healer asked eagerly.

He frowned, then nodded, "Such a comparison would be a boon to Anna's trial, as well... however, you will have to ask Anna, too - I'm not going to let you do that against her wishes. There is, however, a compromise in case she is unwilling to part with a scale of her dragon in the present - you may be able to call her in as a material witness, to compare her current Avatar condition to that of the scale. That should be less... invasive, I believe?"
He nodded to Tane, "In fact, he might be able to sing her dragon out safely, so all can see it..."

Anja wrote:"That is a priceless book indeed. I have heard of the ritual, it was used by magi who wanted an apprentice but could not find a good candidate, it create a Gifted child to train...and if the child is Gifted that means it have an Avatar so a psycopomp is summoned to give the creation such a soul...it makes sense, I would very much like to see this book Mr Wainwright it seams this Lady Dalisse gave you a wonderful gift."
Cita said and smiled.

S7trif3 wrote:"Interesting."

He smiled, "And yet, I think her friendship was the finer gift yet..."

Anja wrote:"Indeed so Mr Wainwright."
Cita said.

S7trif3 wrote:"The Order was making use of such tests and proving grounds before the Technocracy existed. We like results that we can replicate using the same methods that we can share with other members. And in this way we learn more about our Reality and can make new postulate new ideas."

He nodded, "I'm sure some Sleepers experimented with the same methods around the same time as Magi did, too... perhaps not quite as eloquently, but nevertheless..."

S7trif3 wrote:He took it back. "Well, more like 104, perhaps...yes, how are you dealing with that by the way? Have you figured out how to change your vibration back so you only see the material plane?"

He shook his head, "No... and to be honest, I don't actually mind it all that much. Most spirits, it seems, don't actively seek out attention, even if they notice I can sense them. Sort of like meeting a colleague at a hockey match, only he's wearing the other team's colours - there's something of an unspoken acknowledgment that neither of you noticed. What I'm actually more interested in is figuring out how to share the sense, if only briefly."

Anja wrote:"I see, well if you would be so kin as to contact Mr Yager about this then and ask for his help?"
Cita requested.

S7trif3 wrote:"Ms Florintine is not going to enjoy stranger's company. However, perhaps he can come with me, when I visit her so that everyone feels more comfortable, if he accepts."

Anja wrote:"We are going to have to be gentle and understanding and make sure the girl is not scared, and introduce new individuals to her slowly and on her own premises."

He nodded, "The introduction would have to be gentle, but I believe both Dr. Boudavich and Mr. Yager are quite capable of that... well, assuming Mr. Yager's enthusiasm doesn't get the better of him, though I think he's got a bit more sense of decorum than that. Either way, first things first - check with either if they've got the time and availability to come see Miss Florentine and help her."

((OOC: Welp, that was a couple of hours. ))

[Serge, Colin, Tane and Adley] (Cabal meeting)

"Why stop at dragons. Aren't there a bunch of mythical creatures in Horizon? Let's meet them all!" Serge said with a smile.

"Horizon have become a refuge for many Bygones yes, but I am not so sure they would be pleased if you treated their home as a petting zoo. Also there are some critters you might not want to meet Serge like for example the Avatar eaters."
Bruce said and frowned.

"We'd need mages from all parts of the magickal spectrum. Both Technomancer's and Mystics." Serge said agreeing with Bruce.

"Agreed."
The Artificer said and nodded.

Colin nodded, "As it happens, I know a couple of potential candidates I can ask - I'm not going to share their contact information all willy-nilly; they have their right to privacy."

Bruce just nodded at that.

He nodded, "Part of the problem is that there is one known incident of past success, and that was buried..."

"Yeah someone are hellbent on making sure Avatar cleansing stay a secret."
The Artificer said and frowned.

He pondered, "The Virtual Adepts might have a few options as far as simulations go, though - which is a good route to go without endangering others."

"I am not so sure this is something it will be easy to run a simulation on."
The other Orphan said an he shook his head.

He frowned, "That depends on her, as well... some are able to find the strength to carry on, some... well... let's hope, if it comes to that, that she'll be in the former category."

Bruce had a dark look in his eyes and he nodded.
"Yeah let us hope that."

He shrugged, "Only to an extent. There are many conveniences even quite senior Magi have adopted, even if they're based on Union advances. Even Chief Morgan is quite fond of his coffee maker."

"I am not sure the well you guys have washing machines and coffee makers so you might as well let us poke a needle in your butt and inject some Technocracy juice into you will fly but yes, the Union have made some good things, no one can deny that."
Bruce said wryly.

He nodded, "I myself was amply vaccinated only months before I Awakened, courtesy of going to war in a foreign country with a lot of sand... it has hardly seemed to hamper my development. But, you're rather stretching the normal bounds of a debate right now."

"That might just be the argument we need, if you Awakened a short time after being vaccinated that should prove that your magickal abilities where not affected by the vaccines."
Bruce said and frowned.

He frowned, "Wakefield is no idiot - the bastard knew precisely what he was doing in trying to malign one vaccine to give his own competing brand a better chance."

"Yeah well, idiot or no he did allot of damage."
Bruce said sourly.

He grinned, "The doctor I had in mind is more of a metaphorical magic unicorn... a dual Traditions physician, both Verbena and Etherite. Remarkably skilled. As for seeing the mythical creatures of Horizon... you don't want to meet them all. There's a beast from an island, a beast that eats Avatars. Not something you want to get too close to."

"Dr Mossley right? I went to her once, the reason I went to Horizon to have an injury fixed, she is a good doctor."
Bruce said and nodded.
"She is dual Tradition? That is rare."

He grinned, "That said, once is not harmful... three days in a row, that's the absolute limit. More than that, you'll get Primium buildup in the brain; you'll want to avoid that."

"Well I do prefer to keep my brain in a reasonably good condition, and if I try it it would be once to know what to expect if I where ever captured by the Union."
Bruce said and frowned.

"You can never read too much fiction." Serge said with a smile. "I need to re-read the Discworld series one day. It's been a while."

"Discworld is a good series."
Bruce agreed and nodded.
"Just make sure you have one leg in the real world as well eh?"

"We'll use a magick telescope and watch from a far distance. Our Avatars don't need to be anywhere near it." Serge said, evidently wanting to see all that Horizon had to offer.

"I would prefer not to see the Avatar eaters at all Serge and I think your Mentor would be rather stern with us if we let you anywhere near them as well."

(Avatar Restoration Discussion Cita's Room.)

"I don't think that's going to be a good idea, not for the person trying to wake them either...it would be better to see what occurs. Perhaps something will have changed?"

"Agreed I have said as much, at best something might have changed and we might learn something at and if not then at least the poor man is not scared while he await his fate while he is in the Seeking."
Cita said and she nodded in agreement.

"I can't swear for it being exactly word for word, very nearly so...it stuck with me since it came a bit out of the blue. Before a lot of other things happened..." He frowned. "She was inscrutable then, but perhaps it could not hurt to ask."

"I will give her host a call and we will see if she is willing to shed some light on things."
Cita said.
"But yes it is most curious."

He frowned, "We should see if we can't get someone to keep an eye on his progress as he's in his Seeking... The chap was forced to take a long, hard look at himself when we caught him..."

"Looking into the Seeking of another is not easy or always safe but I can see what I can arrange."
The spirit healer said and nodded.

He pondered, "If Teomim worked with them, it stands to reason that we will be able to find some way to communicate. I'm guessing the help you have in mind has a lot of scars, too, Adley?"

"The problem is that we do not know how the Master Alchemist communicated with the Psycopomps."
Cita said and sigh.

He nodded, "So let us not, and say that we didn't, alright?"

Cita smiled at that and nodded.

His expression soured a little, "Ah, yes, I was thinking - perhaps inappropriately - of Mr. Gregario as more of a carer than a Mentor at this stage. My apologies... and yes, casting doubt on him like that is inappropriate. Add to that, I'm not sure if any... former Mage is even capable of mustering so much jealous rage, even."

"Even the ones that do well among the unfortunate ones....are reduced so no most of them are not capable of such an act of passion no, and yes Mr Gregatio are more of Miss Florentine's caretaker right now than her teacher, and he is doing a good job of it."
Cita agreed.

He nodded, "I have passed a few samples to others for very specific examinations - individuals whose discretion I trust well enough to not lead to someone seeking out Anna. There will be no wholesale trading in that sand, owing to the dangers of it, including the strength of the arcane link."

Cita nodded again at that.

He frowned, then nodded, "Such a comparison would be a boon to Anna's trial, as well... however, you will have to ask Anna, too - I'm not going to let you do that against her wishes. There is, however, a compromise in case she is unwilling to part with a scale of her dragon in the present - you may be able to call her in as a material witness, to compare her current Avatar condition to that of the scale. That should be less... invasive, I believe?"
He nodded to Tane, "In fact, he might be able to sing her dragon out safely, so all can see it..."

Cita nodded.
"Off course I would not wish to do this to your apprentice against her will, and yes looking at her Avatar is less invasive but also less direct than showing the two scales side by side but can be done if Anna do not wish to do it, or if Dr Lee think doing so would be unsafe, as I said the procedure would be painful. My suggestion is that we speak with Dr Lee first to see if me taking one of Anna's scales is safe and if he says yes then we can talk with the girl together so that she do not become scared if I do so without you there."
The spirit healer said and she smiled kindly.

He smiled, "And yet, I think her friendship was the finer gift yet..."

Cita smiled a little at that.

He nodded, "The introduction would have to be gentle, but I believe both Dr. Boudavich and Mr. Yager are quite capable of that... well, assuming Mr. Yager's enthusiasm doesn't get the better of him, though I think he's got a bit more sense of decorum than that. Either way, first things first - check with either if they've got the time and availability to come see Miss Florentine and help her."

Cita nodded at that.
"Mr Yager where asked to help Beatrice get some sleep, he was kind and careful with her according to Master Nassa so I think he knows when to keep his enthusiasm in check."
Cita said and nodded.
"Though I can not say for sure since I have not met the kid yet."

[Cabal Meeting, 10 AM, Wednesday September 30th]

Anja wrote:"Yeah someone are hellbent on making sure Avatar cleansing stay a secret."
The Artificer said and frowned.

Colin nodded, "Several someones... Proving their identities, though..."

Anja wrote:"I am not so sure this is something it will be easy to run a simulation on."
The other Orphan said an he shook his head.

He shrugged, "True, it probably won't be easy, but if anyone can pull it off, it would be Master Telar."

Jeremy wrote:"You can never read too much fiction." Serge said with a smile. "I need to re-read the Discworld series one day. It's been a while."

Anja wrote:"Discworld is a good series."
Bruce agreed and nodded.
"Just make sure you have one leg in the real world as well eh?"

Jeremy wrote:Serge gave Bruce a smile and a simple thumbs up.

He nodded, "I've got to get the last two books, too - never got around to those. And there will be no more new books, either, rest Sir Pterry's soul - seems his will made sure of that."

Anja wrote:"I am not sure the well you guys have washing machines and coffee makers so you might as well let us poke a needle in your butt and inject some Technocracy juice into you will fly but yes, the Union have made some good things, no one can deny that."
Bruce said wryly.

He grinned, "True, there's a big leap between accepting a coffee maker and accepting an injection - but there's precedent for accepting Union advances."

Anja wrote:"Agreed."
The Artificer said and nodded.

Jeremy wrote:"Debates need arguments and arguments need proofs. We're just discussing the latter." Serge said with a shrug.

He nodded, "Proofs, certainly, but it sounds like you're advocating pulling off a several-year study in a week's time..."

Anja wrote:"That might just be the argument we need, if you Awakened a short time after being vaccinated that should prove that your magickal abilities where not affected by the vaccines."
Bruce said and frowned.

He grimaced, "Rather extreme circumstances, though, but yes, my Avatar was at the time supposedly too weak to be able to Awaken on her own. If vaccines were an impediment, that would have made even extreme circumstances insufficient..."

Anja wrote:"Yeah well, idiot or no he did allot of damage."
Bruce said sourly.

He nodded, "At the very least his particular incident of bastardry is disproved several hundred times over..."

Anja wrote:"Well I do prefer to keep my brain in a reasonably good condition, and if I try it it would be once to know what to expect if I where ever captured by the Union."
Bruce said and frowned.

He nodded, "Keeping a cool head and perhaps a concealed lockpick of some sort could get you far, I guess... Hm, that would be an interesting idea to infiltrate their holdings - Primium lockpicks concealed in... awkward places. They wouldn't be able to pick those up on scans, either..."

S7trif3 wrote:"It writes out stories, does it not? Biographies...?"

He nodded, "Whose did you have in mind?"

S7trif3 wrote:"Rarer than a unicorn...and that island and those beasts should /not/ exist. Seeing one was worse enough..." And the aftermath, all the tass that had been avatars, he scowled.

Anja wrote:"Dr Mossley right? I went to her once, the reason I went to Horizon to have an injury fixed, she is a good doctor."
Bruce said and nodded.
"She is dual Tradition? That is rare."

He nodded, "The very one - she'll wind up my family physician once we move to Horizon - though that's yet a little while off."

S7trif3 wrote:"For safety reasons, we might consider skipping gorgons, for example."

Anja wrote:"Horizon have become a refuge for many Bygones yes, but I am not so sure they would be pleased if you treated their home as a petting zoo. Also there are some critters you might not want to meet Serge like for example the Avatar eaters."
Bruce said and frowned.

Jeremy wrote:"We'll use a magick telescope and watch from a far distance. Our Avatars don't need to be anywhere near it." Serge said, evidently wanting to see all that Horizon had to offer.

S7trif3 wrote:"Near is relative in a realm and in the umbra. If you see one of those things at any distance, I urge you to get as far away as possible. Not to ruin your fun, but they chew up avatars and excrete them as tass." He looked even more pale a moment. "Let's see the unicorns, instead..." he added.

Anja wrote:"I would prefer not to see the Avatar eaters at all Serge and I think your Mentor would be rather stern with us if we let you anywhere near them as well."

Jeremy wrote:"...Yeah. She would be very angry." Serge said with a defeated smile.

Anja wrote:"She would and with good reason and I try to not piss of Masters of the Art, if one is going to anger someone it is best not to choose someone with the powers of a god."
Bruce said and grinned.
"And especially when it comes to mages do not mess with a Master's apprentice, and the biggest no no would be to put said Master's apprentice's Avatar in danger, so no Avatar eaters for you but perhaps we can take up room in the hotel who's rooms are literary clouds."

He grinned, "No risking infuriating the person who can make you believe you're a five-year-old princess in a pink fluffy dress... and the Avatar Eaters would be best observed through binoculars from the safe vantage point of a heavily armed gunship."

S7trif3 wrote:"Thank you for that. Again. I think the worst part was that I did not know or realise that what I was seeing was not real. At any rate, it did end up showing us something important but it was dangerous."

He arched an eyebrow, "I would not go so far as to claim it was not real... I would hazard what you saw were two real events overlapping, more than anything else."

[Investigating Avatar Restoration, Cita's apartment]

Anja wrote:"Agreed I have said as much, at best something might have changed and we might learn something at and if not then at least the poor man is not scared while he await his fate while he is in the Seeking."
Cita said and she nodded in agreement.

S7trife wrote:"That might be good, but whom?"

Anja wrote:"Looking into the Seeking of another is not easy or always safe but I can see what I can arrange."
The spirit healer said and nodded.

S7trif3 wrote:"I'm not sure he's saying peer into the Seeking so much as keep an eye on him until he awakens..if he does."

He nodded, "Ah, no, I meant examine his Avatar while he's otherwise occupied. Interfering with the Seeking might have unpleasant results for everyone."

Anja wrote:"The problem is that we do not know how the Master Alchemist communicated with the Psycopomps."
Cita said and sigh.

S7trif3 wrote:"There may be hints at that in the book...I can look it over for certain side notes that would give an indication that it would not be the standard way of communicating with spirits."

He nodded, "True, and I never suggested it would be easy, just that we should be able to find a way. Which is why I need to get the ritual finished quickly, so we can test it. Hum... come to think of it, Teomim was not a Hermetic, so it's plausible he did not need to speak Enochian to achieve communication, either..."

S7trif3 wrote:"Well, something like that," he said, unsure how she would feel about them being called scars when they were her avatar marks. He ate some of the cookies.

He nodded, "Were you thinking of the one we went into battle with, or the Mentor-apprentice pair?"

Anja wrote:"Even the ones that do well among the unfortunate ones....are reduced so no most of them are not capable of such an act of passion no, and yes Mr Gregatio are more of Miss Florentine's caretaker right now than her teacher, and he is doing a good job of it."
Cita agreed.

He nodded, "He's doing a very good job of it, the... interfering visit of a beast notwithstanding."

Anja wrote:Cita nodded.
"Off course I would not wish to do this to your apprentice against her will, and yes looking at her Avatar is less invasive but also less direct than showing the two scales side by side but can be done if Anna do not wish to do it, or if Dr Lee think doing so would be unsafe, as I said the procedure would be painful. My suggestion is that we speak with Dr Lee first to see if me taking one of Anna's scales is safe and if he says yes then we can talk with the girl together so that she do not become scared if I do so without you there."
The spirit healer said and she smiled kindly.

He nodded, "Sounds like a plan, then. I'll ask Dr. Lee, and then I will introduce you to Anna."

S7trif3 wrote:"If you say so, I have found that it can attract unwanted attention sometimes. Some spirits are hostile. At any rate, I am not sure if I can show you how I do it, since it involves a basic understanding of the...hrm, what you would call maybe the ethereal body, or your body that vibrates on the same plane as it is spirit. And part of that is knowing the difference in the base matter and life body, as it were...maybe I can find something in the library though, I've been in there often enough."

He nodded, "True enough, some are hostile... but I have my little scrambler; a few subtle waves of my wand, and they lose track of me... It's not been necessary more than once so far, though, not counting the rescue of little Egypt in Chicago."

Anja wrote:Cita nodded at that.
"Mr Yager where asked to help Beatrice get some sleep, he was kind and careful with her according to Master Nassa so I think he knows when to keep his enthusiasm in check."
Cita said and nodded.
"Though I can not say for sure since I have not met the kid yet."

S7trif3 wrote:"Alright, keep me posted."

He smiled, "He's... young, for good and ill. There's a kindness and innocence to him that I hope he can retain for a great many years yet."

((OOC: I think the main reason my last post took so long was that I had between fifteen and twenty posts to catch up on, not so much the conversations within those posts.))

[Adley, Colin, Tane and Serge] (Cabal meeting 10 in the morning Wednesday 30/9 2015)

"For safety reasons, we might consider skipping gorgons, for example."

"I can think of a few critters we should skip on the tour."
Bruce said wryly.

"Rarer than a unicorn...and that island and those beasts should /not/ exist. Seeing one was worse enough..." And the aftermath, all the tass that had been avatars, he scowled.

"Yeah that critter where nasty, it attacked you id it not Adley, no wonder you would not want to see one again. Also why have not that island and those creatures been destroyed long ago?"
Your Cabalmate asked and frowned.

"Near is relative in a realm and in the umbra. If you see one of those things at any distance, I urge you to get as far away as possible. Not to ruin your fun, but they chew up avatars and excrete them as tass." He looked even more pale a moment. "Let's see the unicorns, instead..." he added.

"And something chewing on your Avatar that sort of permanently run your fun."
Bruce said and frowned.
"Unicorns even angry unicorns would be far better."

Colin nodded, "Several someones... Proving their identities, though..."

"Yes that is indeed the problem."
Bruce said.
"But we will uncover them eventually."

He shrugged, "True, it probably won't be easy, but if anyone can pull it off, it would be Master Telar."

"Well the lady is really good at what she do I hear."
Your Cabalmate agreed and nodded.

He nodded, "I've got to get the last two books, too - never got around to those. And there will be no more new books, either, rest Sir Pterry's soul - seems his will made sure of that."

"I am of two minds when it comes to that Colin, looking at the new Dune books I can understand that authors do not want others to continue their series but at the same time it sort of suck that nothing more will be made."
Bruce said and sigh.

He grinned, "True, there's a big leap between accepting a coffee maker and accepting an injection - but there's precedent for accepting Union advances."

"True enough."
The other Orphan agreed.

He nodded, "Proofs, certainly, but it sounds like you're advocating pulling off a several-year study in a week's time..."

"Not really, just show a few examples of vaccines not harming a mage's ability to do magick."
Bruce said and shrugged.

He grimaced, "Rather extreme circumstances, though, but yes, my Avatar was at the time supposedly too weak to be able to Awaken on her own. If vaccines were an impediment, that would have made even extreme circumstances insufficient..."

"Indeed so that story should be told as it show that vaccines did not harm your Avatar one bit."
The Orphan said and nodded.

He nodded, "At the very least his particular incident of bastardry is disproved several hundred times over..."

The Artificer nodded at this and grunted.

He nodded, "Keeping a cool head and perhaps a concealed lockpick of some sort could get you far, I guess... Hm, that would be an interesting idea to infiltrate their holdings - Primium lockpicks concealed in... awkward places. They wouldn't be able to pick those up on scans, either..."

Bruce raised an eyebrow.
"Now there is a place I would not like to have Primium."
He grunted.
"But yes being able to keep a clear head is useful."

He nodded, "The very one - she'll wind up my family physician once we move to Horizon - though that's yet a little while off."

"Yeah she is really good, took care of a Paradox issue I had, so you have seen that she will be your octor in the future then Colin, damn but do that give me a headache."
He said and grunted.

He grinned, "No risking infuriating the person who can make you believe you're a five-year-old princess in a pink fluffy dress... and the Avatar Eaters would be best observed through binoculars from the safe vantage point of a heavily armed gunship."

"Then again Colin I would look fabulous in a frilly dress"
Bruce joked.
"But yes let us make sure none of us get eaten by the Island Creatures, that would be bad."

"I have most of the books on my phone." Serge said pulling out his phone and looking through a rather large selection of e-books.

"I prefer physical books for myself kid but if I am traveling I use my Kindle it is more comfortable to read on than a phone."
Bruce said as he glanced at Serge's phone.

"Who comes up with this stuff? Cause they're a genius!" Serge said with a smile remembering the cloud hotel he had heard about from Jane. "Yeah I'm cool with putting the hotel on the list."

"Cloud hotel it is then, usually it is shit expensive but the owner's son owe me a favor."
Bruce said and shrugged.

"Oh please. My mentor's not that mean." Serge began innocently, "And besides, she can do so much worse than that."

"Yeah that is what is am afraid of."
Bruce said wryly.

[Investigating Avatar Restoration, Cita's apartment]

"That might be good, but whom?"

"Me probably."
Cita said and sigh.
"But yes it is doable just not very easy."

"I'm not sure he's saying peer into the Seeking so much as keep an eye on him until he awakens..if he does."

"Ah well, a camera in his cell should be enough then and now and again going in to check on him, that I can arrange for, I have some leeway with the Security Council."
The spirit healer commented.

"There may be hints at that in the book...I can look it over for certain side notes that would give an indication that it would not be the standard way of communicating with spirits."

"The Creation of the Magus' Child book? Yes please do that would be helpful."
Cita said and nodded.

"Well, something like that," he said, unsure how she would feel about them being called scars when they were her avatar marks. He ate some of the cookies.

"I see, well I will be careful with my words, but yes asking him might be useful yes."
She agreed.

"It is certainly ominous."

"Ominous yes but true considering how many Fallen are captured by the Traditions."
Cita said and frowned.

He nodded, "Ah, no, I meant examine his Avatar while he's otherwise occupied. Interfering with the Seeking might have unpleasant results for everyone."

"The Avatar might be less than pleased if someone pokes at it when it is busy creating a Seeking for her Host."
Cita said and frowned.

He nodded, "True, and I never suggested it would be easy, just that we should be able to find a way. Which is why I need to get the ritual finished quickly, so we can test it. Hum... come to think of it, Teomim was not a Hermetic, so it's plausible he did not need to speak Enochian to achieve communication, either..."

The spirit healer just nodded at that.

He nodded, "He's doing a very good job of it, the... interfering visit of a beast notwithstanding."

"Yes that...was unfortunate, but he is doing a good job an have trained several skilled Mercere many thought where just broken individuals with no future."
Cita said and nodded.

He nodded, "Sounds like a plan, then. I'll ask Dr. Lee, and then I will introduce you to Anna."

The Spirit Healer nodded at that.

(OOC 1: Sorry for the late reply I GMed Mage on chat last night and when done I was tired. Lily the widderslainte I have used as a NPC for this game did evil stuff again, I know how you all loooooooove her. )

(OOC 2: Yes it seams the Cabal meeting is slowing down and should soon be done.)

(OOC 3: It is the length of posts which is cause it to take time not where they are posted but I am sorry you do not like the way we organize IC threads Nicole.)

(OOC 4: Sorry about that Colin, I hope you feel better now.)

[Cabal Meeting, 10 AM, Wednesday September 30th]

Anja wrote:"Well the lady is really good at what she do I hear."
Your Cabalmate agreed and nodded.

Colin nodded, "And of course, whether or not she can help with that, the main point remains - no human tests until there is some thorough theoretical work done to chart as many possible results and preparing responses to them. A simple 'I expect this one thing to happen, and it will work out fine' will not do; I'm going to demand seeing plans for marginal cases, too, both positive and negative results, and plans for handling every eventuality."

Anja wrote:"I am of two minds when it comes to that Colin, looking at the new Dune books I can understand that authors do not want others to continue their series but at the same time it sort of suck that nothing more will be made."
Bruce said and sigh.

He nodded, "Some book series can be continued by another author. Some series... well, Pratchett's was rather a unique mind, and we may never see its equal again among the ranks of fiction writers. It is sad that he passed on, and that there will be no more Discworld stories, but I sincerely doubt anyone else would have been able to pick up the torch."

Jeremy wrote:"I have most of the books on my phone." Serge said pulling out his phone and looking through a rather large selection of e-books.

Anja wrote:"I prefer physical books for myself kid but if I am traveling I use my Kindle it is more comfortable to read on than a phone."
Bruce said as he glanced at Serge's phone.

Jeremy wrote:"Physicals nice but I don't have a preference. I'm cool with any method." Serge said. Bruce would notice that Serge had a large variety of books in many different genres, ranging from fantasy to sci-fi to mystery and much more.

Anja wrote:"Have you tried to use a kindle they have a screen that imitate paper, the effect is pretty good actually."
Bruce said then he glanced at your phone.
"That is a cool collection of books you have though kid, do you read allot?"
The Orphan asked.

He smiled thinly, "I won't deny that the electronic book readers are convenient for portability, but it's just not a real book to me unless I can touch the paper and smell the ink and glue... or what do you say, Adley?"

Anja wrote:"Not really, just show a few examples of vaccines not harming a mage's ability to do magick."
Bruce said and shrugged.

He nodded, "Reasonable enough, then - we can certainly ask around a few places about vaccinated Magi of various Traditions and ages."

Anja wrote:"Indeed so that story should be told as it show that vaccines did not harm your Avatar one bit."
The Orphan said and nodded.

He nodded, "Most certainly. And I can vouch for what it feels like when someone tries to harm my Avatar in comparison..."

S7trif3 wrote:"Think about it...I'm not sure if it's a wise idea, but it is an idea. I'll talk to you later about it."

He nodded, "Tell you what, swing by my shop one day during work hours, and I'll summon him there."

Anja wrote:Bruce raised an eyebrow.
"Now there is a place I would not like to have Primium."
He grunted.
"But yes being able to keep a clear head is useful."

He grinned, "Might want to wrap it up somehow, so the thin spiny bits don's accidentally poke holes in something - but yes, it would be uncomfortable. On the other hand, imagine how fearsome you could be if you learned to overcome such an intimate presence of Primium while working your magic?"

Anja wrote:"Yeah she is really good, took care of a Paradox issue I had, so you have seen that she will be your octor in the future then Colin, damn but do that give me a headache."
He said and grunted.

He grinned, "That's the way with Doctors and time; if you think too hard on it, you'll only get a headache. Some times, it is better to just accept it and move on, and let someone else deal with the paradoxes..."

Anja wrote:"I can think of a few critters we should skip on the tour."
Bruce said wryly.

Jeremy wrote:"I bet we could find a way." Serge said stroking his chin methodically although it was obvious he was joking.

Anja wrote:"And something chewing on your Avatar that sort of permanently run your fun."
Bruce said and frowned.
"Unicorns even angry unicorns would be far better."

He nodded, "Which reminds me, I'm going to have to research the various, er, dragon rental services, to see if there are any where the dragon itself is in charge. Anna is really eager to meet and possibly fly one, and I'd rather hate to encourage enslaving intelligent beings like that - I hear they are quite as clever as humans."

Anja wrote:"Yeah that critter where nasty, it attacked you id it not Adley, no wonder you would not want to see one again. Also why have not that island and those creatures been destroyed long ago?"
Your Cabalmate asked and frowned.

S7trif3 wrote:"It attacked us, yes and I fought one. If you have to engage in combat, hit them square in the teeth with something heavy duty, they seem to be weakest there." He mimed bashing it as if with something not quite the size of a cricket bat or long hammer - his club.

Anja wrote:"I will keep it in mind Adley, hopefully we will never have to deal with those critters again."
Bruce said and frowned.
"Are they physical or spirit though? And do you know why they and their island s not destroyed? Why do Horizon a place full of mages have critters that eat Avatars?"
The Orphan asked.

He nodded thoughtfully, "Blunt trauma to the teeth, duly noted. And I suspect that the reason they are not exterminated is one of conservation - remove a species, who knows what ramifications you wind up with up and down the food chain... besides, it would detract from the whole, however horrid they are..."

Jeremy wrote:"Who comes up with this stuff? Cause they're a genius!" Serge said with a smile remembering the cloud hotel he had heard about from Jane. "Yeah I'm cool with putting the hotel on the list."

Anja wrote:"Cloud hotel it is then, usually it is shit expensive but the owner's son owe me a favor."
Bruce said and shrugged.

He arched an eyebrow, "Sounds like a truly cushy place, that hotel... How expensive is 'shit expensive'?"

Anja wrote:"Then again Colin I would look fabulous in a frilly dress"
Bruce joked.
"But yes let us make sure none of us get eaten by the Island Creatures, that would be bad."

Jeremy wrote:"Oh please. My mentor's not that mean." Serge began innocently, "And besides, she can do so much worse than that."

Anja wrote:"Yeah that is what is am afraid of."
Bruce said wryly.

He grinned, "Quite, not helping. The one thing more embarrassing than being turned into a frog would be being convinced one was turned into a frog..."

S7trif3 wrote:"Hrm...more like seeing things through the lens of someone else's Being and interpreting them that way. It was real in it's own way, I suppose. Yet also not real, even if it gave us new truths."

He nodded, "Well, I suppose we were lucky with the contextual parallels. That could have gone far worse, I suspect..."

[Investigating Avatar Restoration, Cita's apartment]

Anja wrote:"Ah well, a camera in his cell should be enough then and now and again going in to check on him, that I can arrange for, I have some leeway with the Security Council."
The spirit healer commented.

S7trif3 wrote:"I think that might be wise," he said.

Anja wrote:"I will see if it can be arranged and I will check in on the man now and again and advocate against waking him but that I am not sure if I can manage, a camera though should be easy enough."
Cita said and nodded.

He nodded, "A camera should be good - that ought to make it easier to react quickly when he wakes up naturally, too."

Anja wrote:"The Avatar might be less than pleased if someone pokes at it when it is busy creating a Seeking for her Host."
Cita said and frowned.

He frowned, "You would know far more about that than I would - I will take your word for it."

S7trif3 wrote:"Let me have a look at the book, later."

Anja wrote:"The Creation of the Magus' Child book? Yes please do that would be helpful."
Cita said and nodded.

He smiled, "The book is in my apartment, of course, and you are welcome to come by any time to read."

S7trif3 wrote:"The former, though the latter may also have some ideas. It might be hard to parse those responses though...I have a lot of things to try to fit together and it's a bit like reading twenty books at once, a sentence each and fitting them together."

He pondered, "She is a little... differently-minded, but the puzzle pieces seem to fit together remarkably well once you have just the little scrap of information that is needed to work it out. Almost as though her insights are meant for only one or two persons at a time..."

Anja wrote:"Yes that...was unfortunate, but he is doing a good job an have trained several skilled Mercere many thought where just broken individuals with no future."
Cita said and nodded.

He frowned, "The Mercere may be the House possessed of the strongest individuals of the whole Order of Hermes... It's a pity they don't get credit for that."

S7trif3 wrote:"I'm glad to see that works on them also..."

He grinned, "Not as glad as I was when I retrieved Egypt and her mother. Those spirits that were following us would have been... troublesome if they'd led the Fallen back to Morningstar with us."

((OOC: Still sick. Doctor's appointment at quarter past way too early tomorrow. I "hope" I'm still sick at that point, since it would otherwise just be an awkward waste of time and money. ))

[Adley, Colin, Nicole, Tane and Serge] (Cabal meeting 10 in the morning Wednesday 30/9 2015)

"Haven't used them but I've seen plenty of old chinese men using them in the subways." Serge said giving a rather specific example. "They're really cool-looking but I can't really justify buying one when I can do the important stuff on my phone."

"If you are ok with an older model I have a old kindle I no longer use just laying aroun you can have that if you want Serge just to check it out, the newer ones are better but the older models still work well."
Bruce offered.

"I read when I get the urge too. Used to read a lot more when I was in school." Serge replied. "Nowadays I mostly watch tv shows on my laptop but I still enjoy reading from time to time."

The large Orphan nodded at that.
"Well reading is a nice hobby, TV shows can be fun as well though."

Colin nodded, "And of course, whether or not she can help with that, the main point remains - no human tests until there is some thorough theoretical work done to chart as many possible results and preparing responses to them. A simple 'I expect this one thing to happen, and it will work out fine' will not do; I'm going to demand seeing plans for marginal cases, too, both positive and negative results, and plans for handling every eventuality."

Bruce nodded at that.
"Agreed."

He nodded, "Some book series can be continued by another author. Some series... well, Pratchett's was rather a unique mind, and we may never see its equal again among the ranks of fiction writers. It is sad that he passed on, and that there will be no more Discworld stories, but I sincerely doubt anyone else would have been able to pick up the torch."

"Yeah i would tend to agree, and yes it is sad the man passed on but I am glad he did not get to the end stages of his disease before he passed, that must be a nightmare, to become less and less you, to die while you are still alive."
The Orphan said and frowned.
"I guess we will have to do with the books we have of the series."

He smiled thinly, "I won't deny that the electronic book readers are convenient for portability, but it's just not a real book to me unless I can touch the paper and smell the ink and glue... or what do you say, Adley?"

"I agree I like to smell and touch books but some books are not published in physical book format so if you want to read them you have to use an e reader."
Bruce commented.

He nodded, "Reasonable enough, then - we can certainly ask around a few places about vaccinated Magi of various Traditions and ages."

"That might give us ammunition to counter Miss Rozzo's arguments."
The large man said and nodded.

He nodded, "Most certainly. And I can vouch for what it feels like when someone tries to harm my Avatar in comparison..."

Bruce nodded at that.
"Indeed you woul be better able than most to say during a debate that vaccines o not harm a mage's magickal abilities."

He grinned, "Might want to wrap it up somehow, so the thin spiny bits don's accidentally poke holes in something - but yes, it would be uncomfortable. On the other hand, imagine how fearsome you could be if you learned to overcome such an intimate presence of Primium while working your magic?"

"Yes well I doubt I will make a habit out of showing Primium up my ass even if it mght give a certain flair in escaping confinement by the Technocracy."
The Orphan said and grinned.

He grinned, "That's the way with Doctors and time; if you think too hard on it, you'll only get a headache. Some times, it is better to just accept it and move on, and let someone else deal with the paradoxes..."

"Yeah you might be right about that."
Bruce said.
"Some things are best to not think about to much."

He nodded, "Which reminds me, I'm going to have to research the various, er, dragon rental services, to see if there are any where the dragon itself is in charge. Anna is really eager to meet and possibly fly one, and I'd rather hate to encourage enslaving intelligent beings like that - I hear they are quite as clever as humans."

"Yeah the way I understand it they live far up into the mountains, they can talk and have human intelligence so holding them against their will is not good."
Bruce said.
"I don't know I only saw a few as I walked from the Umbral port to the Sons of Ether clinic and as I had a Paradox flaw that...ehm never mind that, I was more concerne with getting where I where going to have it dealt with to say it like that, but they looked really neat, large and blue."

He nodded thoughtfully, "Blunt trauma to the teeth, duly noted. And I suspect that the reason they are not exterminated is one of conservation - remove a species, who knows what ramifications you wind up with up and down the food chain... besides, it would detract from the whole, however horrid they are..."

"Yeah screw conservation nuke the bastards."
Bruce grunted.
"I can not see what use the world have of Avatar eaters."

He arched an eyebrow, "Sounds like a truly cushy place, that hotel... How expensive is 'shit expensive'?"

"It is about five drams of Tass per person per night, I do not have that kind of riches but like I said the owner's kid owe me a favor and have promised me a stay free of charge."

He grinned, "Quite, not helping. The one thing more embarrassing than being turned into a frog would be being convinced one was turned into a frog..."

"Indeed, let us try to avoid pissing of Serge's Mentor."
Bruce said and frowned.

[Investigating Avatar Restoration, Cita's apartment]

He nodded, "A camera should be good - that ought to make it easier to react quickly when he wakes up naturally, too."

"Yeah and it would make it harder to just disrepair him if some of those we love very much decide he is a threat to them."
Cita said and nodded.

He frowned, "You would know far more about that than I would - I will take your word for it."

"Remember the Avatar create the mindscape seen in a Seeking."
Cita explained.
"But I will see what I can do."

He frowned, "The Mercere may be the House possessed of the strongest individuals of the whole Order of Hermes... It's a pity they don't get credit for that."

"Agreed they are strong, and fill and important role they should get more credit, they really should."
The spirit healer said and nodded.

(OOC: I hope you get well soon Warp being sick really sucks.)

[Cabal Meeting, 10 AM, Wednesday September 30th]

Anja wrote:"Yeah i would tend to agree, and yes it is sad the man passed on but I am glad he did not get to the end stages of his disease before he passed, that must be a nightmare, to become less and less you, to die while you are still alive."
The Orphan said and frowned.
"I guess we will have to do with the books we have of the series."

Colin nodded, "The... fading state that comes with Altzheimers is a nasty one. There are few things that have become known in the twentieth century that are quite as horrifying..."

Jeremy wrote:"More than just portability. Accessibility as well. Never needed to go outside to the library when I could just borrow the ebooks on my phone right from the comfort of my own home." Serge said with a smile. "But I won't deny that feeling the paper has it's appeal."

Anja wrote:"I agree I like to smell and touch books but some books are not published in physical book format so if you want to read them you have to use an e reader."
Bruce commented.

He smiled thinly, "Oh, I am not saying I dislike reading on a screen, as such - I've read a fair number of stories on my computer, as well; there's a great number of budding writers online, and I do try to encourage those I think are off to a good start, when I come across them. But if given the choice between print and electronic versions of the same book, I will pick the printed version any day."

Jeremy wrote:"I read when I get the urge too. Used to read a lot more when I was in school." Serge replied. "Nowadays I mostly watch tv shows on my laptop but I still enjoy reading from time to time."

Anja wrote:The large Orphan nodded at that.
"Well reading is a nice hobby, TV shows can be fun as well though."

He smiled wryly, "Well, the narrative structures of a TV show is often very different from that of a novel - depending on whether the TV show bothers much with continuity and an ongoing plot, or if it is merely the problem-of-the-week that must be solved with the consequences never addressed again. Or, of course, if it's a soap opera with unending drama and no particular discernible plot. But of course, some days, you want a wholesome dinner with all the trimmings, and other days you just want a Big Mac."

Anja wrote:"That might give us ammunition to counter Miss Rozzo's arguments."
The large man said and nodded.

He nodded, "Hum, do you know about Nico's stance and vaccination status?"

Anja wrote:Bruce nodded at that.
"Indeed you woul be better able than most to say during a debate that vaccines o not harm a mage's magickal abilities."

He smiled wryly, "Indeed. 'Why, Honoured Council, I've been vaccinated, attempted Gilguled, dosed myself with the bloody Serum, hopped into a Caul and tore it down from the inside before it could invert my Avatar - I can assure you that one of those was nowhere near my Avatar or magical abilities at any time' might come off as a bit jaded, though..."

Anja wrote:"Yes well I doubt I will make a habit out of showing Primium up my ass even if it mght give a certain flair in escaping confinement by the Technocracy."
The Orphan said and grinned.

He nodded, "There's always the option of taping it to your skin, behind your, hm, scrotum. It is exceedingly rare to have so thorough an examination performed without very good cause for suspicion - like if something showed up on a scan."

Anja wrote:"Yeah the way I understand it they live far up into the mountains, they can talk and have human intelligence so holding them against their will is not good."
Bruce said.
"I don't know I only saw a few as I walked from the Umbral port to the Sons of Ether clinic and as I had a Paradox flaw that...ehm never mind that, I was more concerne with getting where I where going to have it dealt with to say it like that, but they looked really neat, large and blue."

He grinned, "Blue, are they? Oh, Anna's going to love that."

Anja wrote:"Yeah screw conservation nuke the bastards."
Bruce grunted.
"I can not see what use the world have of Avatar eaters."

He frowned, "I suppose it would be... a cleaner method than six Masters of Spirit, but yes, I do agree the world would probably be a slightly better place if those beasts simply did not exist anymore..."

Anja wrote:"It is about five drams of Tass per person per night, I do not have that kind of riches but like I said the owner's kid owe me a favor and have promised me a stay free of charge."

He whistled softly, "Damn, that is a place for the filthy rich..."

Jeremy wrote:"I hope I'll never need to use that advice. But I'll definitely keep it in mind just in case." Serge said with a nod.

He grimaced, "I think that goes for the lot of us."

Anja wrote:"Indeed, let us try to avoid pissing of Serge's Mentor."
Bruce said and frowned.

He grinned, "I think that rather goes for anyone's Mentor, not just Serge's."

[Investigating Avatar Restoration, Cita's apartment]

Anja wrote:"Yeah and it would make it harder to just disrepair him if some of those we love very much decide he is a threat to them."
Cita said and nodded.

He nodded, "Very true."

Anja wrote:"Remember the Avatar create the mindscape seen in a Seeking."
Cita explained.
"But I will see what I can do."

He nodded, "True enough. No need to poke the bear if it can be avoided."

Anja wrote:"Agreed they are strong, and fill and important role they should get more credit, they really should."
The spirit healer said and nodded.

He smiled thinly to Adley, "I'm sorry to say it, Amicus, but I'm afraid your House is only the second bravest, as such... but the competition is fierce."

[Investigating Avatar Restoration, Cita's apartment]

He nodded, "Very true."

"Yes for we do not want the poor man in the claws of our enemies."
Cita commented.

He nodded, "True enough. No need to poke the bear if it can be avoided."

The spirit healer just nodded at that.

[Adley, Colin, Nicole, Tane and Serge] (Cabal meeting 10 in the morning Wednesday 30/9 2015)

"But your already letting me borrow Metal Gear Solid. If I take any more from you I'll feel bad." Serge said with a grin. "But I'll certainly borrow it if you'll let me. Thanks a lot Bruce. I have wanted to use those for a while."

"Well the games you get to borrow they I want back but the old kindle I no longer use so you can have it, it is just laying around in a drawer collecting dust so if anyone want it and want to use it that works for me, I have a newer model that I use."
Bruce said and shrugged.

Colin nodded, "The... fading state that comes with Altzheimers is a nasty one. There are few things that have become known in the twentieth century that are quite as horrifying..."

"Yeah I mean if I had gotten such a disease and the healers could not fix it I would shoot myself before it got to far."
Bruce commented darkly and he shuddered.

He smiled thinly, "Oh, I am not saying I dislike reading on a screen, as such - I've read a fair number of stories on my computer, as well; there's a great number of budding writers online, and I do try to encourage those I think are off to a good start, when I come across them. But if given the choice between print and electronic versions of the same book, I will pick the printed version any day."

"Yeah I feel the same way reading electronic documents are fine and good and all that and if the text in question can only be found electronically then so be it, but I prefer to read a printed book over words on a screen."
Your Cabalmate said and nodded.

He smiled wryly, "Well, the narrative structures of a TV show is often very different from that of a novel - depending on whether the TV show bothers much with continuity and an ongoing plot, or if it is merely the problem-of-the-week that must be solved with the consequences never addressed again. Or, of course, if it's a soap opera with unending drama and no particular discernible plot. But of course, some days, you want a wholesome dinner with all the trimmings, and other days you just want a Big Mac."

"I do prefer shows with a continuous story but in any regard sometimes just kicking back and be entertained by a few episodes after a long day's work is nice you know."
Bruce said with a grin.

He nodded, "Hum, do you know about Nico's stance and vaccination status?"

"It have never really come up but as one of them served in a war as a technician I am pretty sure that part where vaccinated at least."
Bruce said.
"I can ask them."

He smiled wryly, "Indeed. 'Why, Honoured Council, I've been vaccinated, attempted Gilguled, dosed myself with the bloody Serum, hopped into a Caul and tore it down from the inside before it could invert my Avatar - I can assure you that one of those was nowhere near my Avatar or magical abilities at any time' might come off as a bit jaded, though..."

"Jaded perhaps but true non the less unfortunately."
Bruce said and frowned.
"We could always have someone hold a spell going while they are vaccinated to show it do not affect their abilities but Miss Rozzo might then claim it is only a issue over time."

He nodded, "There's always the option of taping it to your skin, behind your, hm, scrotum. It is exceedingly rare to have so thorough an examination performed without very good cause for suspicion - like if something showed up on a scan."

"Well now this conversation went weird places, but yes it is a possibility but not something I would like to walk around with in my daily life."
The other Orphan said wryly.

He grinned, "Blue, are they? Oh, Anna's going to love that."

"The ones I saw where light blue with white bellies."
Bruce commented.
"Anna likes blue dragons then?"

He frowned, "I suppose it would be... a cleaner method than six Masters of Spirit, but yes, I do agree the world would probably be a slightly better place if those beasts simply did not exist anymore..."

"I think I would prefer the Spirit Masters than to have y soul eaten by a pack of monsters and then shit out as Tass."
Bruce grumbled.
"I still say nuke the bastards."
At that he gave a coy look at Adley since Nukes where a nickname for House Flambeau.

He whistled softly, "Damn, that is a place for the filthy rich..."

"Indeed, I said it was shit expensive did I not."
Bruce said and shrugged.
"There are far cheaper places to stay on Horizon though. I rented a room at this little cottage inn for the night I was there."

He grinned, "I think that rather goes for anyone's Mentor, not just Serge's."

"Indeed we would not want to piss off anyone old enough to have an apprentice."
Bruce said.
"Other than you Colin."
He added with a grin.
"We can piss of you."

(OOC: Ouch that do not sound good, take care of yourself Warp an get well soon.)

[Serge, Colin, Adley, Tane] (Cabal Meeting)

The point is there is a chance of doing that quickly and we may be onto something, so i keep my spirits high, even so i'm realistic. That it's not likely can't prevent me from trying.

"I you feel like going through various legal books and history trying to find something that is not there Mr Karyak then by all means no one is going to try to stop you."
Bruce said and he sounded rather doubtful.

Well, without the proper rising and education they can become dangerous, potentially. Even so, they are better treated and endure over nephandus, so if any of them can be treated as widderslaints are, that'd be a great advance.

"No it is more like this Mr Karyak, widderslainte are born like monsters, they are the children who torment their siblings, kill pets and then advance to raping, torturing and murdering human beings, and that is before they get really nasty. However there are a small handful of those who's corrupted souls have not completely corrupted their minds, those like Beatrice, but for most widderslainte it is not the fault of their upbringing that they are what they are, they are born as monsters."
The Orphan said and he shook his head.

Breaking the notion of possible or impossible is what makes Mages what they are. This can be done.

"That is true enough Mr Karyak, true enough everything is possible, however possible do not make it likely."
The large man replied.

There are far less werefolk than there once were, at least here. I've been told those people existed, and were aberrations of the werehorses in europe and asia. THey have all been killed and their conection to the great spirits severed, killed and consumed. The only ones existing today are the ones that before that served the enthropic aspect of reality and have been preserved as demons.

"There actually where werunicorns once? Well shit and demon weunicorns?"
Bruce said and he raised and eyebrow.
"Well damn serves me right for doubting just about anything could exist."

If there's a guest of the race there in horizon, make sure to ask her all stories she can remember..

"There are unicorns on Horizon but I doubt that they are werunicorns, so they tell few stories but they will gladly impale you so I think I will stay clear of them if you don't mind."
Bruce said and he sounded amused.

Amadeus has told me she is. She just looks for her own nonexistence instead of nonexistence at large. Maybe someday that changes. I can only hope...

Bruce nodded at that.
"Indeed we can only hope."

[Investigating Avatar Restoration, Cita's apartment]

Hum... ya, sorry Cita.

"That is quite okey Mr Karyak."
The spirit healer said and she nodded.

Well, there has to be a distinct connection to sever, it can be done. Maybe a filter there to let psychological corruption can be placed in the meantime as one investigates. Something like that could even help widderslaints

"Filtering out the guidance of the Avatar, well yes that is potentially possible but it will not help for a trial, widderslainte like Beatrice with minds who are not yet corrupted get Gilgulled as well Mr Karyak, it is having a Falen Avatar which is illegal so while such a thing might help and individual, though liit if not destroy their ability to work magick, which might be worse than death, it will do nothing legally."
Cita said and she shook her head.

That means then that it is a really auspicious time to see, for it probably was waiting for miss Florentine. It will be awesome

"It is likely yes that the lady by the riverside have always been intended for Miss Florentine, Avatars know themselves when they want to be reborn and to whom."
The Virtual Adept said and nodded.

They can communicate at a spiritual level at least if what we know is true.

"They can lead Avatars to their hosts but communicate in an understandable way for us, that I do not know."
Cita said and shook her head.

Stuck like it has been borne from your avatar or stuck like the ones that were used as a barricade from the umbra by nephandus?
Yeah, well, Gandjya has told me it could bring a shard about easily, so if i wanted to have i could just experience it. But if it's not time, then...

"Yes...a shard from a shattered Avatar."
Cita said softly and she looked out into the air with great sadness in her eyes for a moment but then she turned to look at Tane.
"What do you mean that your Avatar could bring about a shard?"

Wait there, Cita, just a second. I'm not accusing him of anything, and i belive you, since i have only good references from him, but even so, i'm concerned for this man too. I mean, the guy has been through so much trauma that i don't know how much he can take. The other day Beatrice almost got a panic attack for not knowing it her avatar was with her and i sang it to her. I didn't know they were looking, Miss Florentine and Mister Gregario, and when i saw them he was looking at us like he was about to snap, andshe was just the same kind of sad.
After seeing that, i'm concerned of this man reaching his limit, so i'm concerned with their care. You have to understand i just want them to be able to coexist after this is done. I'd love him getting better and happy with all of this and finding new strenghts to keep going, but it's just as likely the man can't understand why he's not given the same and we can't just go around and throw avatars at people.
I belive what you say of him, i just don't want to traumatize him further or leave the girl alone if he does.

"What you said where that you where worried that Mr Gregario would grow jealous and harm Miss Florentine, which is preposterous. Now when that is said that any change might upset the poor man and that he might need help and counsel that might be, but he is not violent and nor is he stupid."
Cita said and shook her head.
"Mr Gregario understand that Master Nassa's situation is rare and that there is not a slew of Avatars just waiting to be placed. I see no reason for concern here."

I'm sure we can ask around in the other chantries, maybe they know of someone that's looking to understand her condition better and is willing to do something like this.

"I know of only three widderslaintes withing the Traditions, Beatrice, the young man who saved her by pointing to the precedent set in his trial and Master Senex's apprentice Amanda, and she is currently arrested, Master Senex is also protecting one more widderslainte in his Chantry, beyond that if there are widderslaintes at any other Chantries they are living in hiding."
The spirit healer said and she shook her head.

Wait, if there's one you can bring from the future, maybe we don't have to hurt her now. Maybe i can sing her avatar in front of the audience. It's more exposing but i can try and play a note and not all of her song, so that it can be seen without the need to hurt her.

"I am afraid that seeing Miss Wainwright's Avatar and being able to compare it directly to the scale are two different things but yes if the girl refuses or her health do nto allow for such a procedure it is a good alternative."
Cita agreed.

I don't dislike the man, i'm just afraid he's reached his limit.

"At worst Mr Karyak the man will collapse and need care himself, nothing I want to see happen but it could however until that happens he will have our confidence and support."
Cita said simply.

[Cabal Meeting, 10 AM, Wednesday September 30th]

Could it be argued that someone forced to enter the Caul to protect her mentor is not doing anything illegal? So it was not illegal, and she is in an illegal state due to been forced. A person can't be blamed by the actions undertaken when there's no will, it's part of the basic conditions for law actions: you can only commit a law act if you have the will to do such actions by your own volition, you understand what it implicates (although you don't need to be aware of the law, you need to understand the causality of your actions), you have the capacity, the way and a licit objetive.

"I doubt it Mr Karyak, the thing is that being Fallen is illegal by Tradition law no matter how you got that way. Also no one can toss you into a Caul or so I hear and since being Fallen is considered the same as betraying Asencion itself, if your life is threatened or you are tortured or a loved one is threatened is not considered enough duress to commit such an act."
Bruce said and shook his head.

As i see it, if mage law is the same, they were not acting of their own volition and they had a licit objetive that was not the objective of turning themselves on fallen mages but they wanted to legitimelly protect a third party. Under the circumstances, they should be treated by the same law of a widderslaint (given they too are not able to make legal acts since acts have been niflicted upon their souls in the moment of receiving their avatars), a mental Disabled or a child.
By jurisprudence, then, we should be able to get them a powerful mentor to get them spared. Right? That's the difference in regular jurisprudence, although i have my doubts about mage jurisprudence, though, since it doesn't specifies what are the conditions for a person to be able to do anything.

What do you guys think, could we go with that and argue too that they can be turned back to their original state

"It do not work like that among mages and the thing is Gilgulling Fallen is not really about crime and punishment it is about damage control, if you have a horrible illness with no treatment and the CDC can not control it then the military might move in, kill the afflicted and salt the earth, that do not mean they think the sick have any fault in their condition."
The Orphan said and frowned.
"Also Miss Clearwater is a fully initiated member of the Traditions you can not just give a fully initiated mage a Mentor, also there is not really that anyone have sat down and thought ok widderslaintes have no fault in their condition so we will leave them this loophole, the only reason why Bee was saved and a small handful like her is precedence, nothing else and there is no precedences to let a Nephandus off the hood by reducing them to apprentice ran and giving them a teacher. Also in addition to all of that I doubt you would find any Master of the art willing to take on a Nephandus like Miss Clearwater as a student."

Oh, well, then with a model we can try to replicate. I hope Master Telar can help.

If we need test subjects, there are this shards sitting between our worlds and the umbra... maybe some of those are fallen and can be used, since they are already shattered and not linked to anyone, they should be safe to use now that i think of them.

"If anyone can help it would be Master Telar."
Bruce said then he shrugged.
"I know nothing about such shards though but if they are not linked to anyone I see nothing wrong in experimenting on them."

"Different strokes for different folks." Serge said with a shrug.

Bruce just grunted at that.

"I've survived this long. Either I'm extremely lucky or destined for health problems in the future." Serge said with a smile.

You are not extremely lucky most lifestyle diseases do not show up in a twenty year old when you are fifty though that is another matter."
The Orphan grunted.

[Cabal Meeting]

"So I have 30 years to learn how to screw around with life magick. Or smarten up and go on those jogs with Mr. wainwright and Adley."

"Life magick then Serge for it do not matter if you start taking care of yourself at age 50, the damage will have already been done, you should be happy you are not my apprentice or I would chase you around with a cattle prod to get you moving."
The large Orphan said with no indication on whatever or not he was joking.

He nodded, "There is one precedent for letting a Nephandus, one who has been into the Caul in this life, live on as a Traditionalist. That precedent is when their Avatar is too outright dangerous to flay, and killing the Fallen in question would mean an even more dangerous widderslainte being born later. I've met that renegade Nephandus in person, by the way; quite a pleasant man, but you really don't want to threaten his Avatar."

"Shit we actually have a Nephandus in the Traditions? Other than your apprentice that is?"
Bruce said and his eyes widened.
"I will assume that this do not work to get Miss Clearwater off the hood though."

He frowned, "That's probably not going to be easy, even if you can find those shards - they're known to be dangerously attracted to the nearest potential host; Magi have wound up getting essentially shanked in their Avatar like that."

"Yeah that do not sound good."
The other Orphan commented and shuddered.

He nodded, "Keep in mind, you likely won't get the choice to not let her be hurt again - Fate is a fickle mistress, and while the choices we make change the future, we don't always get a good option to pick..."

"No I will protect her and if you are thinking about January, then no we are not going to let her get killed in that attack, we now about it now and we will be ready for the bastards!"
Bruce declared.

He smiled wryly, "Yes, it is quick to load up popcorn time on the phone like that - but you are missing my point; you essentially speak of individual people, I speak of families. If you don't know about popcorn time, how would you find it, and how viable is it for a whole family to sit around a phone to watch a movie? As for the legality of it - well, there are good laws and bad laws, and any law that is likely to not be respected by the citizenry or law enforcement in general is a pretty bad law..."

"And how likely is it that a family with kids, are going to sit an watch old people shows on a few channel, and popcorn time work on most things, and also kids in the family will know about it."
Bruce said and shook his head.
"There are to much good entertainment out there for anyone under the age of 60 to sit and watch reruns and shit community shows over an antennae."

He arched an eyebrow, "Wait... we have a roof garden? I knew we have a flat roof, where Dr. Lee does his morning martial arts practice, but when was the garden aspect of it added?"

"About a week ago when Miss Rozzo arrived, you know Verbena and their plants."
Te Orphan explained.

He grinned, "There's no guarantee there'll be rodents of any kind on the table, though - even if Strawberry were to be invited along. As for the tass-infused wine, I'm afraid that's quite well outside the budget I had in mind. You'll be lucky if I can get some decent ales and wines to go with the assorted dishes."

"Strawberry that is the rat shifter right?"
Bruce asked.

He nodded, "Not in and of itself, no, but it's amazing how much a few warm colours and a bit of fabric can change one's perception of the room's temperature."

"The Node look raw and natural and I quite prefer it like that I do not think warmer colors will add much there."
Bruce said and he shook his head.

[Avatar Restoration Discussion, Cita's apartment]

He pondered for a moment, "Keep in mind the candidates I have in mind are not necessarily going to accept; it's one hell of a long shot either way... but I'll not have Mr. Karyak find them and pester them."

"Very well I will leave it you to ask them then Mr Wainwright."
Cita agreed.
"I assume you do not want to reveal their identities here?"

He frowned, "Any tampering with an Avatar is going to be painful, that much is not in question - what I am wondering about is whether there is a difference in discomfort between that of an Avatar forcibly dragged out for examination, and that of one politely invited out by Mr. Karyak's song.

"There is no pain when Mr Karyak use his song Mr Wainwright as then the Avatar is not forced it is invited out, it would be the difference between the police handcuffing you and dragging you out of your apartment and you coming out because you wanted to listen to Miss Olsen's lovely violin music."
Cita explained.

It seems plausible enough that an examination with a gentle hand when the Avatar is manifested and relaxed, as it were, might be less traumatic than when it is forced out and essentially roughly manhandled. I certainly would want to know in advance if it going to make a difference for Anna when her time to be examined comes... I would volunteer for such a test myself, but that's... not really a viable option for rather particular and unique reasons, is it?"

"Yes Mr Karyak singing Anna's Avatar out before I do the examination will be much more plesant for the girl, again to use a similie it would be the difference between the police holding you down to check for drugs in your system and you willingly going to a family doctor you trust and have the examination done."
Cita said.
"There would be far less trauma for both the girl and her Avatar."

[Cabal Meeting, 10 AM, Wednesday September 30th]

Tane wrote:Could it be argued that someone forced to enter the Caul to protect her mentor is not doing anything illegal? So it was not illegal, and she is in an illegal state due to been forced. A person can't be blamed by the actions undertaken when there's no will, it's part of the basic conditions for law actions: you can only commit a law act if you have the will to do such actions by your own volition, you understand what it implicates (although you don't need to be aware of the law, you need to understand the causality of your actions), you have the capacity, the way and a licit objetive.

Anja wrote:"I doubt it Mr Karyak, the thing is that being Fallen is illegal by Tradition law no matter how you got that way. Also no one can toss you into a Caul or so I hear and since being Fallen is considered the same as betraying Asencion itself, if your life is threatened or you are tortured or a loved one is threatened is not considered enough duress to commit such an act."
Bruce said and shook his head.

Colin frowned, "The first problem with your logic there is that it is not illegal to enter a Caul - I did that, and got away with it - the illegal part is being Fallen. And the second problem with your logic is that by all accounts, someone forced against their will into a Caul does not get out alive. It does not matter how you are coerced, deceived or otherwise sent into the Caul, you have to enter it of your own conscious volition."

Tane wrote:As i see it, if mage law is the same, they were not acting of their own volition and they had a licit objetive that was not the objective of turning themselves on fallen mages but they wanted to legitimelly protect a third party. Under the circumstances, they should be treated by the same law of a widderslaint (given they too are not able to make legal acts since acts have been niflicted upon their souls in the moment of receiving their avatars), a mental Disabled or a child.
By jurisprudence, then, we should be able to get them a powerful mentor to get them spared. Right? That's the difference in regular jurisprudence, although i have my doubts about mage jurisprudence, though, since it doesn't specifies what are the conditions for a person to be able to do anything.

What do you guys think, could we go with that and argue too that they can be turned back to their original state

Anja wrote:"It do not work like that among mages and the thing is Gilgulling Fallen is not really about crime and punishment it is about damage control, if you have a horrible illness with no treatment and the CDC can not control it then the military might move in, kill the afflicted and salt the earth, that do not mean they think the sick have any fault in their condition."
The Orphan said and frowned.
"Also Miss Clearwater is a fully initiated member of the Traditions you can not just give a fully initiated mage a Mentor, also there is not really that anyone have sat down and thought ok widderslaintes have no fault in their condition so we will leave them this loophole, the only reason why Bee was saved and a small handful like her is precedence, nothing else and there is no precedences to let a Nephandus off the hood by reducing them to apprentice ran and giving them a teacher. Also in addition to all of that I doubt you would find any Master of the art willing to take on a Nephandus like Miss Clearwater as a student."

He nodded, "There is one precedent for letting a Nephandus, one who has been into the Caul in this life, live on as a Traditionalist. That precedent is when their Avatar is too outright dangerous to flay, and killing the Fallen in question would mean an even more dangerous widderslainte being born later. I've met that renegade Nephandus in person, by the way; quite a pleasant man, but you really don't want to threaten his Avatar."

Tane wrote:Oh, well, then with a model we can try to replicate. I hope Master Telar can help.

If we need test subjects, there are this shards sitting between our worlds and the umbra... maybe some of those are fallen and can be used, since they are already shattered and not linked to anyone, they should be safe to use now that i think of them.

Anja wrote:"If anyone can help it would be Master Telar."
Bruce said then he shrugged.
"I know nothing about such shards though but if they are not linked to anyone I see nothing wrong in experimenting on them."

He frowned, "That's probably not going to be easy, even if you can find those shards - they're known to be dangerously attracted to the nearest potential host; Magi have wound up getting essentially shanked in their Avatar like that."

Anja wrote:"I would not go back in time and change things but if I had been told we had to sacrifice Bee to win then screw that then I would protect her there and then, I will not let her get hurt again, not for any reason."
The Artificer said in a huff.

Anja wrote:"It's easiest to say that now, when we cannot change things. Let's not dwell on that..."

Anja wrote:Bruce nodded he looked rather unhappy about it though.

He nodded, "Keep in mind, you likely won't get the choice to not let her be hurt again - Fate is a fickle mistress, and while the choices we make change the future, we don't always get a good option to pick..."

Anja wrote:Bruce pulled out his phone, brought up the web browser, typed in popcorn time and tapped something then he showed you.
"There you gp, that much time and you have a slew of movies and shows at your disposal for free, that is less time than getting an antenna and watch the news and shit."
He said plainly.

Jeremy wrote:"I would argue that the less-legal options require no investment of time at all but I can see how people less familiar with those methods might struggle." Serge said with a nod.

Anja wrote:"Which is exactly my argument, the old might then resort to using an antennae, but younger folks are far more likely to just use one of the illegal options."
Bruce declared.

Jeremy wrote:"Hey! It might be illegal but you don't have to say that. Makes me feel like a criminal." Serge said with a wry grin.

Anja wrote:"Would you rather I like Serge?"
Bruce said and he raised and eyebrow.
"You are technically speaking a criminal so am I for that matter it is hardly legal for me to build my forge in that abandoned junkyard, some laws I can honestly say I ignore, but I am not going to lie about it!"

Jeremy wrote:"I'm too young for jail though." Serge said chuckling, obvious that he was joking around. "Honestly I don't really care. Most people I know don't like to acknowledge it even though they know everyone else does it."

Anja wrote:"You are not most people, and most would like to lie for themselves, I do not want such self delusions though, I know some things are illegal and I admit to doing them with no regrets."
Bruce said and frowned.

Jeremy wrote:"Different strokes for different folks." Serge said with a shrug.

Anja wrote:Bruce just grunted at that.

He smiled wryly, "Yes, it is quick to load up popcorn time on the phone like that - but you are missing my point; you essentially speak of individual people, I speak of families. If you don't know about popcorn time, how would you find it, and how viable is it for a whole family to sit around a phone to watch a movie? As for the legality of it - well, there are good laws and bad laws, and any law that is likely to not be respected by the citizenry or law enforcement in general is a pretty bad law..."

Jeremy wrote:"Whoa Whoa whoa. Hold up. Hold up. Hold up." Serge said rapidly, repeating his words for emphasis. "Roof Garden? We have a roof garden! Why did no one tell me about that!"

Anja wrote:"It is fairly new, Miss Rozzo made it, the garden is pretty neat though you should take a look up there at some point."
The Orphan said with a smile.

S7trif3 wrote:He smiled. "It's fall, so leaves are dropping and soon the cold will come but it is still beautiful and a nice place to meditate. I like to go there when I need to think but have been indoors too long."

Anja wrote:"Yeah the garden is nice."
Bruce said.
"And you are right Adley it is a nice place to meditate and it will be even nicer once Miss Rozzo's plants return for spring and grow up nice and strong."

He arched an eyebrow, "Wait... we have a roof garden? I knew we have a flat roof, where Dr. Lee does his morning martial arts practice, but when was the garden aspect of it added?"

Jeremy wrote:"There's still so much of this place I need to explore. The ritual rooms, the garage, the other miscellaneous rooms this giant place has." Serge said with a sigh. "Guess the roof garden will have to go on the list as well. That means stairs though....ugh why doesn't this place have elevators."

Anja wrote:"Because elevators cost money to install and this is a old building."
Bruce said and shrugged.
"And I hardly think walking up a few stairs are going to kill you kid."

S7trif3 wrote:"Perish the thought," he said, glancing at Serge.

Jeremy wrote:"True....watch, I'm gonna learn how to teleport. Then I'll never have to use stairs again!" Serge said with an odd amount of passion in his voice.

Anja wrote:Bruce giggled a little at that.
"Ah well I am sure your heart will love that getting no exercise what so ever."
He added dryly.

S7trif3 wrote:"I suppose that is one way to be motivated."

Jeremy wrote:"I've survived this long. Either I'm extremely lucky or destined for health problems in the future." Serge said with a smile.

Anja wrote:You are not extremely lucky most lifestyle diseases do not show up in a twenty year old when you are fifty though that is another matter."
The Orphan grunted.

Jeremy wrote:"So I have 30 years to learn how to screw around with life magick. Or smarten up and go on those jogs with Mr. wainwright and Adley."

He grinned, "Keep in mind there are such things as teleportation wards. You don't want to accidentally bounce off an unexpected barrier and find yourself suddenly seated at a dinner table across the street, chowing down on a large serving of Paradox. Aside from exercise, taking the stairs does have its advantages for Mages, too."

Anja wrote:"Mice as in the rodent...well....that is interesting I guess."
Bruce said and he raised an eyebrow.
"I am sure it will be a nice dinner in either case."

Jeremy wrote:"What are they stuffed with? The extinct herbs and spices?" Serge asked curiously.

S7trife wrote:"Call me modern but I'd rather the tass-infused wine than the stuffed mice..." He made a face.

Anja wrote:"What he said."
Bruce declared and pointed at Adley.

Jeremy wrote:"I'm cool with both. Although tass-infused wine does sound quite nice..."

He grinned, "There's no guarantee there'll be rodents of any kind on the table, though - even if Strawberry were to be invited along. As for the tass-infused wine, I'm afraid that's quite well outside the budget I had in mind. You'll be lucky if I can get some decent ales and wines to go with the assorted dishes."

Anja wrote:"That the Node have a low temperature is not going to change by hanging up a painting Colin."
The other Orphan commented.

He nodded, "Not in and of itself, no, but it's amazing how much a few warm colours and a bit of fabric can change one's perception of the room's temperature."

Jeremy wrote:"It is buuut....the Ecstatics aren't the most organized group. The values and lessons vary wildly from member to member and mentor to mentor. Although the ones who are told to slow down from time to time are the ones that usually survive long enough to pass on their teachings." Serge said with a shrug.

He nodded, "Temperance is a fine virtue; moderation in all things, including moderation."

S7trif3 wrote:"I'm just not going to know when it will happen then? It will just happen...that is hard...I have to teach classes. Drive." He frowned. "Thank you for the advice, though I think you would be the first person I might call..."

He nodded, "It could kick in tomorrow, in ten years - or never. Dr. Boudavich would probably be the best person to offer long-term assistance, but I'll be glad to help you center yourself if you should end up with... lasting issues."

[Avatar Restoration Discussion, Cita's apartment]

Anja wrote:Cita nodded at that.
"Very well Mr Wainwright."

He pondered for a moment, "Keep in mind the candidates I have in mind are not necessarily going to accept; it's one hell of a long shot either way... but I'll not have Mr. Karyak find them and pester them."

Anja wrote:"I see little point in such a test, yes it hurt the host just as much if their Avatar is hurt when the Avatar is pulled out of the soul as when it is inside of it, however testing this on a number of people, what on earth will that do for our case?"
Cita asked and she gave you a very confused look.

S7trif3 wrote:"It will hurt the host. When Mrs Carlyle's avatar was...out of her body, so to speak, I was able to use a spell that hurt it due to it's nature of being spliced with a lower spiritual being. Using a spirit-based magick on it had indeed hurt it, and we heard her cry out."

Anja wrote:"Indeed, Branding as well happens after the Avatar have been pulled out the host's soul, Gilgul as well for that matter it is much harder to affect an Avatar as long as it is snugly sitting insie the host soul and both of those things are definitely painful for the host."
Cita said and she frowned.
"Excruciatingly painful."

He frowned, "Any tampering with an Avatar is going to be painful, that much is not in question - what I am wondering about is whether there is a difference in discomfort between that of an Avatar forcibly dragged out for examination, and that of one politely invited out by Mr. Karyak's song. It seems plausible enough that an examination with a gentle hand when the Avatar is manifested and relaxed, as it were, might be less traumatic than when it is forced out and essentially roughly manhandled. I certainly would want to know in advance if it going to make a difference for Anna when her time to be examined comes... I would volunteer for such a test myself, but that's... not really a viable option for rather particular and unique reasons, is it?"

((OC: Oops, forgot to paste a copy here - this should be just before Anja's last post. My bad.))

[Cabal Meeting]

Could it be argued that someone forced to enter the Caul to protect her mentor is not doing anything illegal? So it was not illegal, and she is in an illegal state due to been forced. A person can't be blamed by the actions undertaken when there's no will, it's part of the basic conditions for law actions: you can only commit a law act if you have the will to do such actions by your own volition, you understand what it implicates (although you don't need to be aware of the law, you need to understand the causality of your actions), you have the capacity, the way and a licit objetive.

I doubt it Mr Karyak, the thing is that being Fallen is illegal by Tradition law no matter how you got that way. Also no one can toss you into a Caul or so I hear and since being Fallen is considered the same as betraying Asencion itself, if your life is threatened or you are tortured or a loved one is threatened is not considered enough duress to commit such an act."
Bruce said and shook his head.

Colin frowned, "The first problem with your logic there is that it is not illegal to enter a Caul - I did that, and got away with it - the illegal part is being Fallen. And the second problem with your logic is that by all accounts, someone forced against their will into a Caul does not get out alive. It does not matter how you are coerced, deceived or otherwise sent into the Caul, you have to enter it of your own conscious volition."

"Terrible as this fact is, it seems to be the case that the mages die. There is one case I know where the caul spit someone out, but that was a rare case. For most others, blackmail, torture until you give in, threats everything else is on the table, so long as that person makes the decision to go in. That's why it was so dangerous for you," he added to Colin, "thank god you turned out to be right about the nature of yours."

He frowned, "That's probably not going to be easy, even if you can find those shards - they're known to be dangerously attracted to the nearest potential host; Magi have wound up getting essentially shanked in their Avatar like that."

"Yes, that is why a gilgulled avatar presents a danger to others if it shatters into pieces, yes; we heard of one being destroyed in the near umbra making passage there a problem. Plus...well, let us just say that I fully believe that not only are the shards dangerous, but they are splinters that wish to draw themselves back together and see other mages as a way to do that...like a raging sea of sorrow and screams, all of them, coursing though the umbra..."

[Cabal Meeting, 10 AM, Wednesday September 30th]

S7trif3 wrote:"Terrible as this fact is, it seems to be the case that the mages die. There is one case I know where the caul spit someone out, but that was a rare case. For most others, blackmail, torture until you give in, threats everything else is on the table, so long as that person makes the decision to go in. That's why it was so dangerous for you," he added to Colin, "thank god you turned out to be right about the nature of yours."

Colin smiled wryly, "I knew the risks going in - and I knew the risk of what would likely happen if that not-thing were allowed to be on the loose any longer. The Fallen who had let their Avatar look at mine were... adequately convincing that I would be able to pull it off, though - not a guaranteed success, but good enough odds that I could dare risk it. A repeat performance is not on the schedule for the next few thousand years, mind..."

Anja wrote:"Shit we actually have a Nephandus in the Traditions? Other than your apprentice that is?"
Bruce said and his eyes widened.
"I will assume that this do not work to get Miss Clearwater off the hood though."

He nodded, "The second best Avatar healer we have, and the son of an Aswadim, no less. And unless we can prove that Miss Clearwater's Avatar is going to outright murder any Spirit Masters trying to tamper with it, no, the precedent won't help her case."

Anja wrote:"Yeah that do not sound good."
The other Orphan commented and shuddered.

S7trif3 wrote:"Yes, that is why a gilgulled avatar presents a danger to others if it shatters into pieces, yes; we heard of one being destroyed in the near umbra making passage there a problem. Plus...well, let us just say that I fully believe that not only are the shards dangerous, but they are splinters that wish to draw themselves back together and see other mages as a way to do that...like a raging sea of sorrow and screams, all of them, coursing though the umbra..."

Anja wrote:Bruce looked at Adley for some time then she shuddered slightly and muttered.
"Damn...going out into the Umbra just got allot less tempting."

He frowned, "I've heard tell of Union Sleepers on board their Umbral ships, set to work on the hull as the ship passed shard clusters... the individuals in question were left in a rather confused, sort-of-Awakened state, while Awakened individuals are likely to be left in quite a bit of pain and in dire need of, well, spiritual surgery... And then there's that one other bizarre case where a Mage simply absorbs any shards they come across and add them to their own like... well, the Borg, actually."

Anja wrote:"No I will protect her and if you are thinking about January, then no we are not going to let her get killed in that attack, we now about it now and we will be ready for the bastards!"
Bruce declared.

S7trif3 wrote:"You can say that again," he said with a shake of his head. For a moment he looked pensive and then pushed his glass of water around in circles between his hands.

He nodded, "January is a known danger. We can't necessarily know about all threats in advance; that possible outcome is still looming... Your dedication is commendable, even admirable, but much as it might gall you, it is necessary to acknowledge the possibility of failure..."

Anja wrote:"And how likely is it that a family with kids, are going to sit an watch old people shows on a few channel, and popcorn time work on most things, and also kids in the family will know about it."
Bruce said and shook his head.
"There are to much good entertainment out there for anyone under the age of 60 to sit and watch reruns and shit community shows over an antennae."

Jeremy wrote:"Yeah I see what you mean. I mostly did my media watching by myself so I don't really have experience with the group aspect of it. Are family movie nights a thing? I thought that was mostly a thing in sitcoms and family tv shows. I've never seen or heard of anyone doing them in real life, at least while I was in school. My family sure as hell didn't do them." Serge said with a slight frown.

Anja wrote:"It is still common for families to watch things together from time to time but it is more common for everyone having their own device and watching what each person find interesting, my point is that if what is on the meny are low quality variety shows, documentaries about knitting and 30 year old sit coms, then chances are that at least younger members of a family would rather bring up Popcorn time on their phone than sit with their parents watching crap."
Bruce said plainly.
"The world have moved on."

He nodded, "CBS, PBS, most of the major networks have channels on the old airwaves; odds are that with an old-fashioned aerial, you can still get over a dozen channels, at least one of which ought to have something worth watching. And while the world, in general, has moved on, not every family can afford smartphones for everyone - in fact, I know several families through the Veterans' Affairs, who are only able to get extremely basic burner phones, mainly for incoming calls. So the assumption that the kids of all families would have the option of streaming while the parents turn on the TV remains... flawed."

Anja wrote:"About a week ago when Miss Rozzo arrived, you know Verbena and their plants."
Te Orphan explained.

S7trif3 wrote:"Maybe you missed the access stairs, they're tucked out of the way. I thought it was there longer than a week though..."

Anja wrote:"Yes and no we have had some decorative plants and a bench and such up there and the Akashics have used the roof to train but now we have a greenhouse, and allot more plants, several benches and still room for the Akashics."
Bruce said.
"Miss Rozzo have been busy."

He nodded thoughtfully, "Well, I haven't had the time to visit the roof in almost two weeks, I suppose the rapid changes would have slipped past me during the recent troubles."

Anja wrote:"Strawberry that is the rat shifter right?"
Bruce asked.

S7trif3 wrote:"Ah well, yes it would not due to upset one of the guests."

He smiled wryly, "I don't know that she would be particularly upset about stuffed mice on the table - I was more thinking that she does seem to have a fondness for sleeping in fruit bowls, from what I've heard."

Anja wrote:"Life magick then Serge for it do not matter if you start taking care of yourself at age 50, the damage will have already been done, you should be happy you are not my apprentice or I would chase you around with a cattle prod to get you moving."
The large Orphan said with no indication on whatever or not he was joking.

Jeremy wrote:"That would certainly be one way to do it." Serge said laughing as if Bruce was joking.

Anja wrote:"Yes indeed I would get you fit in no time kid."
Bruce said and nodded.

S7trif3 wrote:"When I start running again I will probably not be able to keep up a pace any where near like I used to at first, you are welcome to join us."

He arched an eyebrow, also not giving any indication of jest, "I would recommend a riding crop over a cattle prod - electric discharges are known to cause temporary paralysis, after all, and you would not want to mess up Serge's legs while he's running. That could cause unfortunate injuries, after all."

Jeremy wrote:"I'd probably just teleport around within the chantry. Wake up in the morning. Get out of bed. Snap my fingers..., Serge said giving a playful snap of his fingers as a demonstration, "....And appear in a chair in the common room. No paradox and no ruined dinners across the street. Unless I screw it up royally but let's not worry about that now."

Anja wrote:"That sounds like a good way to loose whatever makes you human, if whatever you do, you do with magick, it is possible you know for those who study what is called Life Magick to no longer have any physical needs, they do not need to eat, shit, piss or anything else, they do not get itches, do not get physical pains, nothing and sure it is practical but most do not do this for in doing so they also loose something essential, they loose their humanity."
Bruce said and he shook his head.
"Also this Chantry protect against Dox but sooner or later you will fuck up a spell, and then you will get Paradox no matter where you are, just less of it than if sleepers see your magick."

Jeremy wrote:"Better to get tons of practice inside the chantry than anywhere else." Serge said with a shrug.

"But yeah. I do get what you mean. It's part of the reason as to why I don't read the emotions of everybody I talk too even though I could. Moderation like Mr.Wainwright said. How about I only teleport on tuesday and thursday? Teleport day!"

Anja wrote:"Well getting plenty of practice are certainly important Serge but I think you misunderstand the point of moderation. It is like with alcohol yes, the reason to show moderation is that you want to be in control, not the drink, the same you want to make sure you are the master of your magick and not that it is a crutch that control you."

Jeremy wrote:"Good point." Serge said with a nod. "I'll make sure I'm the controller of my magick and not the other way around."

He cast Adley an impish glance and grinned at Serge, "Indeed, it would be improper to treat magic as your crutch - it is, after all, arcane."

Anja wrote:"The Node look raw and natural and I quite prefer it like that I do not think warmer colors will add much there."
Bruce said and he shook his head.

Jeremy wrote:"One of the many things I've learned in my artist's life." Serge said nodding enthusiastically. "Correct use of bright and warm colors in the right places can work wonders on how you feel about a certain picture. Making you feel warm and fuzzy on the inside or cold and clammy when you realize there's a lack of colors."

S7trif3 wrote:He frowned at them. "Cold and clammy?" he repeated, thinking about his room. "Hrm...I admit I am not very good at that sort of thing, I understand using colors for their symbology in magick but not interior decor or for paintings. I have always preferred to keep things plain and simple, so I could project into my space easier when I used it for morning rituals. I've never really given it thought as to how it made people feel who were in my room. Not that that happened often anyway." He shrugged. It didn't seem off putting to him, but he was used to it.

Jeremy wrote:"Plain and simple have their time and place but if you want to make an impact on a person's psyche then good use of colors and decorations can make for a surprising effective." Serge said simply, showing clear experience with such topics. "I've done it a few times but have some ideas on how to do it better. Speaking of which, I'm probably gonna have to use those ritual rooms soon."

S7trif3 wrote:"That makes sense though until recently I did not even have a couch in my rooms so I can't say I put much thought into how it would affect guests."

Anja wrote:"You can just write your name up on a list if you need to reserve a room, or if a room is not in use and are not reserved you can just use one as you see fit, just return it to the state you found it in when you are done with it."
Bruce explained.

Jeremy wrote:Serge nodded at that. "I'll need to remember to bring some tape. Would make cleaning up the room much easier if I just had to take the drawings off the walls."

Anja wrote:"Seams to be a practical solution."
Bruce agreed and nodded.

He nodded, "A pale blue colour on the walls can make a room feel a lot colder than, say, a dark red or green, which reminds me I rather ought to repaint this apartment sometime soon, too... As for tidying up the ritual rooms, well, you can get quite far with a roll of Scotch tape and a pack of Blu-tack."

Anja wrote:"I do not want to feel fuzzy and warm in the Node I want to feel that this is a holy place, like I do with the old inscribed rocks in there and the natural rock walls."
The Orphan said and he shook his head.

Jeremy wrote:"They can feel like both. And don't holy places often feel warm and protective?" Serge said with a raised eyebrow.

Anja wrote:"That depends on the holy play I assume but our Node do feel protective however as it is far underground it is fairly cold."
The Orphan commented and shrugged.

Jeremy wrote:"It's underground?" Serge said before realizing his own stupidity and quickly saying, "....wait no. Of course it's underground. It's in the basement."

Anja wrote:"Indeed it is and I sort of like it's underground grotto feel personally."
Bruce said and he smiled.

He smiled, "Indeed, 'fuzzy' is not something I would want to associate with our Node. But a space heater would be a precious thing, all the same."

S7trif3 wrote:"Hope for the best, prepare for the worst."

He nodded, "Precisely."

[Avatar Restoration Discussion, Cita's apartment]

Anja wrote:"Very well I will leave it you to ask them then Mr Wainwright."
Cita agreed.
"I assume you do not want to reveal their identities here?"

He nodded, "Quite right. There's a certain degree of courtesy involved in my confidentiality, plus my preference to keep my mind, body and soul in roughly the same place."

Anja wrote:"There is no pain when Mr Karyak use his song Mr Wainwright as then the Avatar is not forced it is invited out, it would be the difference between the police handcuffing you and dragging you out of your apartment and you coming out because you wanted to listen to Miss Olsen's lovely violin music."
Cita explained.

He smiled, "I know, I've seen it."

Anja wrote:"Yes Mr Karyak singing Anna's Avatar out before I do the examination will be much more plesant for the girl, again to use a similie it would be the difference between the police holding you down to check for drugs in your system and you willingly going to a family doctor you trust and have the examination done."
Cita said.
"There would be far less trauma for both the girl and her Avatar."

He nodded, "And the degree of difference is what I would like to have an idea of the extent of - but it is not a crucial necessity."

((OOC: My weekend has been consumed by time travel shenanigans. Timespinner is a pretty good game, and I've been enjoying it thoroughly - despite not being the biggest fan of Metroidvania games in the first place. ))

[Cabal Meeting, 10 AM, Wednesday September 30th]

He nodded, "The second best Avatar healer we have, and the son of an Aswadim, no less. And unless we can prove that Miss Clearwater's Avatar is going to outright murder any Spirit Masters trying to tamper with it, no, the precedent won't help her case."

"Well he sounds like a man it is best to stay clear of."
Bruce commented.
"Have you met this man Colin?"

He frowned, "I've heard tell of Union Sleepers on board their Umbral ships, set to work on the hull as the ship passed shard clusters... the individuals in question were left in a rather confused, sort-of-Awakened state, while Awakened individuals are likely to be left in quite a bit of pain and in dire need of, well, spiritual surgery... And then there's that one other bizarre case where a Mage simply absorbs any shards they come across and add them to their own like... well, the Borg, actually."

"The Borg version sounds a bit interesting but for the rest yeah I am glad such shards are not a common sight in the Umbra."
The other Orphan said darkly.

He nodded, "January is a known danger. We can't necessarily know about all threats in advance; that possible outcome is still looming... Your dedication is commendable, even admirable, but much as it might gall you, it is necessary to acknowledge the possibility of failure..."

"Other than January there are no great prophecy about Beatrice's demise so yes things could happen to her but then it is not fate it is shit that can happen to all of us."
Bruce said darkly.

He nodded, "CBS, PBS, most of the major networks have channels on the old airwaves; odds are that with an old-fashioned aerial, you can still get over a dozen channels, at least one of which ought to have something worth watching. And while the world, in general, has moved on, not every family can afford smartphones for everyone - in fact, I know several families through the Veterans' Affairs, who are only able to get extremely basic burner phones, mainly for incoming calls. So the assumption that the kids of all families would have the option of streaming while the parents turn on the TV remains... flawed."

"Well I guess if the family really can not afford anything but airwaves channels however I doubt that is enough individuals to really make old fashioned watching of TV a big thing."
Bruce said and sigh.
"This is pointless to discuss though as it matter very little to the topics at hand."

He nodded thoughtfully, "Well, I haven't had the time to visit the roof in almost two weeks, I suppose the rapid changes would have slipped past me during the recent troubles."

"You should drop buy it really is nice up there now, Verbena know their plants."
Bruce said with a slight smile.

He smiled wryly, "I don't know that she would be particularly upset about stuffed mice on the table - I was more thinking that she does seem to have a fondness for sleeping in fruit bowls, from what I've heard."

"Well it would be a shame if she was mistaken for some of the stuffed mice on offer, eating the guests are never polite unless you are Hannibal Lecter."
Bruce said with a grin.

He arched an eyebrow, also not giving any indication of jest, "I would recommend a riding crop over a cattle prod - electric discharges are known to cause temporary paralysis, after all, and you would not want to mess up Serge's legs while he's running. That could cause unfortunate injuries, after all."

"Ah yes off course, that is a good point Colin, riding crop it is then."
Bruce said with a completely serious face.

He nodded, "A pale blue colour on the walls can make a room feel a lot colder than, say, a dark red or green, which reminds me I rather ought to repaint this apartment sometime soon, too... As for tidying up the ritual rooms, well, you can get quite far with a roll of Scotch tape and a pack of Blu-tack."

Bruce just grunted at this.

He smiled, "Indeed, 'fuzzy' is not something I would want to associate with our Node. But a space heater would be a precious thing, all the same."

"A heater might indeed be fine."
The other Orphan agreed.

[Avatar Restoration Discussion, Cita's apartment]

He nodded, "Quite right. There's a certain degree of courtesy involved in my confidentiality, plus my preference to keep my mind, body and soul in roughly the same place."

Cita just raised an eyebrow at that.
"Ehm...right well then I will leave it to you Mr Wainwright."

He smiled, "I know, I've seen it."

"It is quite marvelous is it not."
The spirit healer said with a smile.

He nodded, "And the degree of difference is what I would like to have an idea of the extent of - but it is not a crucial necessity."

"Taking a scale will hurt just as badly in both cases Mr Wainwright but if Mr Karyak sing the girl's Avatar out of her then there will be no additional discomfort."
The spirit healer explained.